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Author Topic: Fidel  (Read 10916 times)

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2020, 05:53:12 AM »
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I truly wish that I could tell you what really happened, but the story is so long and convoluted that It would take weeks to type out the facts .....So you can Believe it or not....

Walt, if a story can't be told in 20 seconds or less, then its way too convoluted to be real.

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2020, 05:53:12 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2020, 12:09:54 PM »
Charlie,   IMO the fundamental problem that caused the BOP fiasco ( and JFK's murder) was the fact that John Kennedy wasn't the ruthless iron fisted cutthroat that was needed in the White House at that time.    He inherited a ruthless mob of cut throat pirates who truly believed that they were the true government of the US and they had to answer to no one.   IOW....JFK was a good man with scruples and character who had got more than he bargained for, and found out after he was on board , the ship of which he was supposed to be the Captain, was a damned pirate ship ....and the ruthless cutthroat pirates were in control.   


The fundamental problem that caused the failure appears to me to have been the underestimation of Castro and his abilities. Here is another passage from “Guerrilla Prince by Georgie Anne Geyer that you might find interesting:

“With his uncommon prescience, instinct, and feel, Castro visited the Bay of Pigs only two weeks before the exiles would land, to see how his new Tahitian village resort was coming along. As he was strolling along the bay, he suddenly swirled around to a Cuban companion and exclaimed, "This is a great place for a landing. . . . We should place a fifty-caliber heavy machine gun there, just in case."



Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2020, 03:20:57 PM »

The fundamental problem that caused the failure appears to me to have been the underestimation of Castro and his abilities. Here is another passage from “Guerrilla Prince by Georgie Anne Geyer that you might find interesting:

“With his uncommon prescience, instinct, and feel, Castro visited the Bay of Pigs only two weeks before the exiles would land, to see how his new Tahitian village resort was coming along. As he was strolling along the bay, he suddenly swirled around to a Cuban companion and exclaimed, "This is a great place for a landing. . . . We should place a fifty-caliber heavy machine gun there, just in case."

he suddenly swirled around to a Cuban companion and exclaimed, "This is a great place for a landing. . . .

He was wrong, just as the CIA planners were wrong....The fact that the landing failed is proof that both Castro and the CIA were wrong....and Bahia de cochinos was NOT a "great place for a landing.....The CIA planners failed to realize that the landing craft couldn't get over the coral reef to land the invaders on the shore....

This failure to see the problem was just one of several monumental failures by the CIA.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 03:43:49 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2020, 03:20:57 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2020, 04:30:27 PM »
he suddenly swirled around to a Cuban companion and exclaimed, "This is a great place for a landing. . . .

He was wrong, just as the CIA planners were wrong....The fact that the landing failed is proof that both Castro and the CIA were wrong....and Bahia de cochinos was NOT a "great place for a landing.....The CIA planners failed to realize that the landing craft couldn't get over the coral reef to land the invaders on the shore....

This failure to see the problem was just one of several monumental failures by the CIA.

Yep, one fiasco after another. And then on the second day, this:

“At 14:00, President Kennedy received a telegram from Nikita Khrushchev in Moscow, stating the Russians would not allow the US to enter Cuba, and implied swift nuclear retribution to the United States heartland if their warnings were not heeded.”[158]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2020, 05:12:38 PM »
More passages from “Guerrilla Prince” by Georgie Anne Geyer:

Always the avid student of military history, Castro had assumed that the first step of the invasion would be an attack on his air force (he well remembered that Nasser's entire air force had been destroyed on the ground in Egypt in 1956), so he had dispersed the planes in his small air force. This one move would come to mean the difference between victory and defeat. In the bombing raids that Saturday, Castro lost five planes, but he was left with four British Sea Fury light attack bombers, one B-26, and three T-33S. It would be enough. ...

...But it was his small air force that really won the battle, before the rest of the fighting even began. The American "plan" had been prefaced entirely on the idea that Castro's tiny air force would be destroyed before the invasion force landed. Indeed, the brigadistas had been told it had already been destroyed. This was the fatal falsehood of the invasion. Castro's little Sea Furies were sent out from their hiding places to sink the invasion fleet of the United States of America. The amazing and unexpected fact is that they did! ...

... The battle was not very old when the surviving American ships began steaming out of the bay, stranding some 1,350 brigadistas, who only the day before had been happily sunning themselves at sea. ...

... The CIA had been so certain that Castro's air force would be destroyed that they had not taken even the basic precaution of placing anti-aircraft weapons aboard the ships. As the last U.S. destroyer sailed away from the Bay of Pigs, one brigadista remarked: "In the wake of that ship go two hundred years of infamy."

Castro's little Sea Furies were sent out from their hiding places to sink the invasion fleet of the United States of America. The amazing and unexpected fact is that they did! ...

... The battle was not very old when the surviving American ships began steaming out of the bay, stranding some 1,350 brigadistas, who only the day before had been happily sunning themselves at sea. ...
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Charlie, I know that these are not your words, and you are quoting the book, ...but the words make me very angry because they are lies.....

The ships were NOT American ships ....They did NOT fly the American flag.   

And let me tell you IF  those ships had been American ships Fidel Castro's Island empire would have ceased to exist on April 16 1961.....

The US Navy had a fleet of warships about 40 miles from Cuba, which included the Aircraft carrier US Essex .....Several destroyers, and the USS San Marcos ( An amphibious landing ship with combat Marines on board....   The Essex had fighter in the air ( The Blue Blasters)  armed and ready.....

If the ships that Castro's planes had attacked had been American ships Castros planes and his Island empire would have been destroyed immediately, and the outcome at BOP would have been entirely different.

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2020, 05:12:38 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2020, 05:50:27 PM »

The fundamental problem that caused the failure appears to me to have been the underestimation of Castro and his abilities. Here is another passage from “Guerrilla Prince by Georgie Anne Geyer that you might find interesting:

“With his uncommon prescience, instinct, and feel, Castro visited the Bay of Pigs only two weeks before the exiles would land, to see how his new Tahitian village resort was coming along. As he was strolling along the bay, he suddenly swirled around to a Cuban companion and exclaimed, "This is a great place for a landing. . . . We should place a fifty-caliber heavy machine gun there, just in case."

The fundamental problem that caused the failure appears to me to have been the underestimation of Castro and his abilities.

I disagree.... If JFK had been tough enough to crush the CIA when he learned that they were planning to invade Cube ( much like Hitler did in Poland in September 39) there would have been no fiasco that we know as Bay Of Pigs.     

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2020, 11:21:55 PM »
Castro's little Sea Furies were sent out from their hiding places to sink the invasion fleet of the United States of America. The amazing and unexpected fact is that they did! ...

... The battle was not very old when the surviving American ships began steaming out of the bay, stranding some 1,350 brigadistas, who only the day before had been happily sunning themselves at sea. ...
[/b][/i]
Charlie, I know that these are not your words, and you are quoting the book, ...but the words make me very angry because they are lies.....

The ships were NOT American ships ....They did NOT fly the American flag.   

And let me tell you IF  those ships had been American ships Fidel Castro's Island empire would have ceased to exist on April 16 1961.....

The US Navy had a fleet of warships about 40 miles from Cuba, which included the Aircraft carrier US Essex .....Several destroyers, and the USS San Marcos ( An amphibious landing ship with combat Marines on board....   The Essex had fighter in the air ( The Blue Blasters)  armed and ready.....

If the ships that Castro's planes had attacked had been American ships Castros planes and his Island empire would have been destroyed immediately, and the outcome at BOP would have been entirely different.

Correct, they were not officially American ships. That was by design for plausible denial purposes. However, they were purchased by the CIA for the BOP operation.

 “To create a navy, the CIA purchased five cargo ships from the Cuban-owned, but Miami-based Garcia Line, thereby giving "plausible deniability" as the State Department had insisted no US ships could be involved in the invasion.[97] The first four of the five ships, namely the Atlantico, the Caribe, the Houston and Río Escondido were to carry enough supplies and weapons to last thirty days while the Lake Charles had 15 days of supplies and was intended to land the provisional government of Cuba.[97] The ships were loaded with supplies at New Orleans and sailed to Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua.[97] Additionally, the invasion force had two old Landing Craft Infantry (LCI) ships, the Blagar and Barbara J from World War II that were part of the CIA's "ghost ship" fleet and served as command ships for the invasion.[97] The crews of the supply ships were Cuban while the crews of the LCIs were Americans, borrowed by the CIA from the Military Sea Transportation Service (MSTS).[97] One CIA officer wrote that MSTS sailors were all professional and experienced, but not trained for combat.”[97]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

Offline Gerry Down

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2020, 01:15:56 AM »
I disagree.... If JFK had been tough enough to crush the CIA when he learned that they were planning to invade Cube ( much like Hitler did in Poland in September 39) there would have been no fiasco that we know as Bay Of Pigs.   

He was too inexperienced. He's often described as a breath of fresh of air being so young, but that also means he was inexperienced.

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Re: Fidel
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2020, 01:15:56 AM »