No coffee for Randle, no job for Oswald -- at the TSBD

[John Iacoletti]

It's beyond dispute, that you never make a meaningful contribution to the JFK Assassination Forum. You don't start a Subject: You just argue obstinately against the historical record without providing any proof to refute it. Contrarianism.

Let's take a look at the meaningful topics that Ross has started, shall we?

- A photo of the Tippit plaque at 10th & Patton
- This silly topic
- A claim that another 6th floor shooter would also be required to escape within 75-90 seconds
- 4 different topics consisting of interview clips from CBS news specials about the Warren report
- A letter congratulating Jack Ruby for killing Oswald
- A criticism of Jesse Ventura.

[Joe Elliott]

The circumstances of Lee Harvey Oswald getting a job at a building on the route of President Kennedy's motorcade (5 weeks later) was just happenstance.

Probably true.

The idea that plotters in a conspiracy had him "placed" there is impossible.

Indeed... nobody knew at that time that Kennedy would come to Dallas and pass by the TSBD

No "placement" means no "plot". There was no conspiracy.

That's just jumping to a conclusion way too fast... You assume that Oswald's job at the TSBD was a vital part of a conspiracy simply because it turned out to play a prominent role in the assassination. What if the conspirators (if there were any) just improvised and played the hand they were dealt? Why couldn't they have arranged their plans around the location of the patsy rather than place the patsy somewhere weeks in advance? And besides, who knows what other options were available to them?

This is one of the main problems in your "logic". You relate everything back to the events that actually happened, when that could well have been only one of several scenarios. If there was a conspiracy, it's purpose would have been to remove a President from power. That's not something a couple of guys decide to do over a beer in a local bar. If there was a conspiracy, it would have involved serious players in high places and they wouldn't leave much to chance.

If Mrs Randle decides to stay home or go somewhere else instead off across the street to Mrs Roberts house for coffee: Lee Oswald never learns about the job at the TSBD. He never gets a job there and is never in a position to assassinate President Kennedy at 12:30 PM (CST), 22 November 1963.

So, Mrs Randle is to blame for the assassination. Got it.

Martin’s scenario is possible. They prepared the patsy the be the fall guy. He shows his support for Castro in public. Then, by total luck, he gets a job that puts him in a perfect position to assassinate the President. At a place along a motorcade route that had been used before. In a tall building. In a tall building that is not used as a busy office, as most buildings in Dallas are, but in an old warehouse, with a good chance there would be a floor without nobody (except possibly Oswald) on it. What a perfect coincidence. It would be natural for conspirators to take advantage of such a lucky break.

The problem is, I don’t believe in coincidences. Bad theories commonly have to rely on them. There was a lucky coincidence that made it extra easy or pin Oswald with the crime, making it look like no conspiracy got him in position to commit the crime, because there was no need to. Innocent friends and neighbors had already arranged for that.

Or how about another coincidence. The plotters planted CE-399 to frame Oswald. But they planted it on the wrong stretcher. They didn’t even plant it on a stretcher on the right floor. But they got lucky because someone brought the Connally stretcher downstairs and of all places, parked it next to the stretcher with CE-399. What a lucky coincidence. Now it would be easy to claim the person who brought down the stretcher got the two stretchers confused, which sounds plausible. But wouldn’t sound plausible if Connally’s stretcher was still in another part of the hospital.

False conspiracy theories seem to generate and require lucky coincidences for the conspirators.

[Martin Weidmann]

Martin’s scenario is possible. They prepared the patsy the be the fall guy. He shows his support for Castro in public. Then, by total luck, he gets a job that puts him in a perfect position to assassinate the President. At a place along a motorcade route that had been used before. In a tall building. In a tall building that is not used as a busy office, as most buildings in Dallas are, but in an old warehouse, with a good chance there would be a floor without nobody (except possibly Oswald) on it. What a perfect coincidence. It would be natural for conspirators to take advantage of such a lucky break.

The problem is, I don’t believe in coincidences. Bad theories commonly have to rely on them. There was a lucky coincidence that made it extra easy or pin Oswald with the crime, making it look like no conspiracy got him in position to commit the crime, because there was no need to. Innocent friends and neighbors had already arranged for that.

Or how about another coincidence. The plotters planted CE-399 to frame Oswald. But they planted it on the wrong stretcher. They didn’t even plant it on a stretcher on the right floor. But they got lucky because someone brought the Connally stretcher downstairs and of all places, parked it next to the stretcher with CE-399. What a lucky coincidence. Now it would be easy to claim the person who brought down the stretcher got the two stretchers confused, which sounds plausible. But wouldn’t sound plausible if Connally’s stretcher was still in another part of the hospital.

False conspiracy theories seem to generate and require lucky coincidences for the conspirators.

Or how about another coincidence. The plotters planted CE-399 to frame Oswald. But they planted it on the wrong stretcher. They didn’t even plant it on a stretcher on the right floor. But they got lucky because someone brought the Connally stretcher downstairs and of all places, parked it next to the stretcher with CE-399. What a lucky coincidence. Now it would be easy to claim the person who brought down the stretcher got the two stretchers confused, which sounds plausible. But wouldn’t sound plausible if Connally’s stretcher was still in another part of the hospital.

Or how about this; the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was never at Parkland Hospital. Tomlinson found a bullet on an unrelated stretcher and allegedly gave it to O.P. Wright. I say allegedly, because there is also a story of Tomlinson giving the bullet directly to a Secret Service agent as witnessed by an OTIS repair man. Anyway, O.P. Wright is on record saying that the bullet he got from Tomlinson and gave to Johnson was pointed. When shown a photograph of CE399 he actually denied it looked anything like the bullet he had handled on 11/22/63.

Tomlinson is on record saying that he was shown a bullet once, for identification, but that was by FBI SAC Shanklin about a week after the murder, yet the FBI claimed that SA Odum had shown CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright in april 1964 and that both men couldn't identify it. Strangely enough, when Odum was asked about this he denied ever having shown any bullet to anybody at Parkland Hospital and/or ever having CE399 in his possession.

The first four persons in the chain of custody could not identify CE399 as the bullet they had handled on 11/22/63. Only SA Todd and SA Frazier indentified it from their markings on the bullet, but those two men didn't get the bullet until after it arrived at Washington.

It is completely possible that an unrelated bullet, found by Tomlinson, was substituted for a bullet fired by the MC rifle (which also was in Washington hours after the bullet arrived) to ensure a "match" between the bullet now in evidence and the rifle now in evidence.

Oh, and btw O.P. Wright's wife was a nurse who attended Connally on 11/22/63. When he heard a piece of metal fall to the ground, Mrs Wright picked it up and found it was a bullet. And Nurse Hill is on record saying that she saw a bullet lying next to Kennedy's head. That bullet mysteriously disappeared as apparently did the bullet that Mrs Wright handled.... It could of course all be coincidence, but then, you don't believe in coincidence, right?

[Joe Elliott]

Or how about another coincidence. The plotters planted CE-399 to frame Oswald. But they planted it on the wrong stretcher. They didn’t even plant it on a stretcher on the right floor. But they got lucky because someone brought the Connally stretcher downstairs and of all places, parked it next to the stretcher with CE-399. What a lucky coincidence. Now it would be easy to claim the person who brought down the stretcher got the two stretchers confused, which sounds plausible. But wouldn’t sound plausible if Connally’s stretcher was still in another part of the hospital.

Or how about this; the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was never at Parkland Hospital. Tomlinson found a bullet on an unrelated stretcher and allegedly gave it to O.P. Wright. I say allegedly, because there is also a story of Tomlinson giving the bullet directly to a Secret Service agent as witnessed by an OTIS repair man. Anyway, O.P. Wright is on record saying that the bullet he got from Tomlinson and gave to Johnson was pointed. When shown a photograph of CE399 he actually denied it looked anything like the bullet he had handled on 11/22/63.

Tomlinson is on record saying that he was shown a bullet once, for identification, but that was by FBI SAC Shanklin about a week after the murder, yet the FBI claimed that SA Odum had shown CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright in april 1964 and that both men couldn't identify it. Strangely enough, when Odum was asked about this he denied ever having shown any bullet to anybody at Parkland Hospital and/or ever having CE399 in his possession.

The first four persons in the chain of custody could not identify CE399 as the bullet they had handled on 11/22/63. Only SA Todd and SA Frazier indentified it from their markings on the bullet, but those two men didn't get the bullet until after it arrived at Washington.

It is completely possible that an unrelated bullet, found by Tomlinson, was substituted for a bullet fired by the MC rifle (which also was in Washington hours after the bullet arrived) to ensure a "match" between the bullet now in evidence and the rifle now in evidence.

Oh, and btw O.P. Wright's wife was a nurse who attended Connally on 11/22/63. When he heard a piece of metal fall to the ground, Mrs Wright picked it up and found it was a bullet. And Nurse Hill is on record saying that she saw a bullet lying next to Kennedy's head. That bullet mysteriously disappeared as apparently did the bullet that Mrs Wright handled.... It could of course all be coincidence, but then, you don't believe in coincidence, right?

But Tomlinson said he found a bullet right next to the Connally stretcher.

How do you explain the coincidence of Tomlinson parking the Connally stretcher right next to the stretcher with the planted bullet?

My explanation is that there was no coincidence. He just confused the two stretchers. Do you have an explanation that involves no coincidence?


O. P. Wright remembered a pointed bullet. But I recall he went home, studied some bullets that he owned, and which were pointed and later recalled that the bullet he saw was also pointed. Could his study of his bullets confuse his memory? Similar to a witness seeing someone in a line up and modifying their memory that that was the person they saw commit the crime?

[Martin Weidmann]

But Tomlinson said he found a bullet right next to the Connally stretcher.

How do you explain the coincidence of Tomlinson parking the Connally stretcher right next to the stretcher with the planted bullet?

My explanation is that there was no coincidence. He just confused the two stretchers. Do you have an explanation that involves no coincidence?

No he didn't find a bullet next to Connally's stretcher. According to the story, the bullet was lying on a stretcher and Tomlinson had no idea who that stretcher had been used for. He only knew it must have come down the elevator. There was no coincidence in parking the stretcher there either. All stretchers that came down the elevator were parked there.

O. P. Wright remembered a pointed bullet. But I recall he went home, studied some bullets that he owned, and which were pointed and later recalled that the bullet he saw was also pointed. Could his study of his bullets confuse his memory? Similar to a witness seeing someone in a line up and modifying their memory that that was the person they saw commit the crime?

Too convenient. O.P. Wright used to be a department chief at the DPD before he took a job at Parkland. He knew bullets and he was pretty clear to Josiah Thompson when he gave him a pointed bullet just like the one he had handled on 11/22/63. I think it was no coincidence that the WC took the testimony from Tomlinson before CE399 was entered into evidence, so they could not show him nor was it a coincidence that they did not call O.P. Wright to testify.

Even the WC had doubts about the veracity of CE399, which is why they asked the FBI to go back to all the people in the chain of custody and ask for an identification, which, according to SA Odum, never happened as far as Tomlinson and Wright were concerned.

Similar to a witness seeing someone in a line up and modifying their memory that that was the person they saw commit the crime?

So you agree that witness identification in a line up is not always reliable?

[Gerry Down]

So you agree that witness identification in a line up is not always reliable?

Roger Craig did not view Oswald in a line up but you accept his identification of Oswald.

[Martin Weidmann]

Roger Craig did not view Oswald in a line up but you accept his identification of Oswald.

When and where did I say that? Is it fun just making up stuff?

[Gerry Down]

When and where did I say that? Is it fun just making up stuff?

Sorry i thought you were a Roger Craig supporter.