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Author Topic: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady  (Read 5439 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« on: April 15, 2020, 11:48:10 PM »
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In the "Shelley/Lovelady meeting with Adams and Styles" matter there are basically two stories that are in conflict with another.

According to the Stroud letter, Dorothy Garner told Barefoot Sanders that Adams and Styles went down the stairs before she saw Truly and Baker come up. If this is true, the girls must have cleared the stairs on the 1st floor prior to Truly and Baker getting on to them, which in turn would mean that they would have had to leave the 4th floor within mere seconds after the shots. I estimate that they would have had about between 45 and 60 seconds to come down the stairs from the 4th floor without running into Truly and Baker. That, IMO, could be done. But, under this scenario, it would be impossible for them to meet Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs, as the WC claims, as the evidence shows those men could not have been there at that time.

Which brings me to the second story. Shelley said in his testimony that, after hearing the shots, he didn't do anything for a minute. He and Billy Lovelady then awent across the street to a little island in front of the TSBD where they again stopped for a minute. While there - and this is IMO crucial - he saw Truly with an officer in front of the entrance of the TSBD. I would argue, that officer was Baker. Shelley estimated that he saw Truly and Baker some 3 minutes after the shots. After that they saw officers running down the railroad yard and they walked down that way on the dead-end street passing by the TSBD. They stayed at the railroad yard for a while and then returned to the TSBD, entering it at the backside through the shipping department where they saw Eddie Piper.

Shelley testified he did not recall seeing Victoria Adams on the 1st floor, but added that he might have seen her at some point in time on the 4th floor.

In his testimony, Billy Lovelady basically confirms what Shelley had told the WC. He estimated that the distance of the dead end street in front of the TSBD was between 75 and 100 yards. He said that he saw Truly and the officer [Baker] running into the building. He also confirms that Shelley and he entered the TSBD at the back the building. Asked who he saw there he answered: "I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie". He also said he saw "a few of the guys" who had come in.   

Obviously, if Shelley and Lovelady entered the building several minutes after the shots, it could well be that Lovelady did indeed see Victoria Adams, who would have been on that floor for several minutes after coming down the stairs. It may even be that Victoria Adams did in fact see Shelley when he entered the building and that she simply did not connect the event to the moment she came down the stairs. In her testimony she said; 

Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS - While I was on the way out.
Mr. BELIN - Was anyone going along with you?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; Sandra Styles.


Later in he testimony she was asked again, and she basically repeated the same thing;

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.


So, how much time did go by exactly between Adams and Styles arriving on the 1st floor and seeing Shelley and Lovelady? Was it straight away, a minute later or several minutes later. The testimony is IMO not precise enough to make that determination.

Shelley and Lovelady may well have been the first people sAdams did see after coming down the stairs, but that could have happened later than when she stepped of the stairs, as the WC said. One thing is for sure, Adams said she saw the men at the Houston Street dock, which is where they apparently came in. So, the sighting did not take place at the bottom of the stairs.

So we have two stories;

1. Adams (backed up by Garner) saying she came down the stairs immediately without running into Truly and Baker, who Shelley and Lovelady saw when they were still outside the building

or

2. Adams and Styles coming down the stairs minutes later after Shelley and Lovelady had re-entered the building at the back.

My question is, just how long did it take Shelley and Lovelady to enter the building again after the shots, because that's roughly the time after the shots that Adams and Styles would have had to hang around on the 4th floor to make the encounter at the bottom of the stairs with both men possible?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 01:50:44 AM by Martin Weidmann »

JFK Assassination Forum

Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« on: April 15, 2020, 11:48:10 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2020, 01:24:05 AM »
Nobody interested?

C'mon LN's at least give it a try to explain how and when Adams and Styles had their encounter with Shelley and Lovelady....

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2020, 12:23:30 PM »
Still no LNr willing to take this on?

Could it be they understand, but are not willing to admit, that the WC railroaded Victoria Adams by not including her in the re-enactment and by blurring the time line of her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady?

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Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2020, 12:23:30 PM »


Offline Gerry Down

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Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2020, 02:22:14 PM »
Still no LNr willing to take this on?

Could it be they understand, but are not willing to admit, that the WC railroaded Victoria Adams by not including her in the re-enactment and by blurring the time line of her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady?

Adams might have come down the stairs while Baker, Truly and Oswald were playing cops and robbers inside the lunch room. That would explain why she never saw any of these people as she came down the stairs.


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2020, 02:54:39 PM »
Adams might have come down the stairs while Baker, Truly and Oswald were playing cops and robbers inside the lunch room. That would explain why she never saw any of these people as she came down the stairs.

I seriously doubt it. Don't forget that Truly was ahead of Baker and was already on the stairs to the 3rd floor when Baker went into the lunchroom.
As Baker confronted Oswald, Truly had to return down the stairs to vouch for Oswald, so there would only be a few seconds that there was nobody on the stairs.
Also, the landing between the two stairs wasn't every big. With a wooden floor and the women walking on heels, it would be highly unlikely that they could have passed by Truly and Baker unnoticed.

It also would not explain her encounter with Shelley and Lovelady, which the WC used to discredit her testimony. I have provided a timeline based on Shelley's and Lovelady's testimony which makes it physically impossible for the encounter to have happened for at least several minutes after the shots.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 03:02:16 PM by Martin Weidmann »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2020, 02:54:39 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2020, 04:11:44 PM »
Nobody interested?

C'mon LN's at least give it a try to explain how and when Adams and Styles had their encounter with Shelley and Lovelady....

As you've pointed out there are two conflicting stories.    And nothing that is solid physical evidence.   The stories can be debated from both sides...What would be accomplished?

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2020, 04:39:39 PM »
As you've pointed out there are two conflicting stories.    And nothing that is solid physical evidence.   The stories can be debated from both sides...What would be accomplished?

Debate it and find out, Walt

My position based on the evidence of the testimony by Shelley and Lovelady is that Victoria Adams could not have seen either man on the first floor until at least several minutes after the shots. This would mean that she and Styles would have waited several minutes after the shots before going down, which in turn does to match with what Dorothy Garner told Barefoot Sanders.

The only way IMO to reconcile the testimony of Victoria Adams with that of Shelley and Lovelady is that she did in fact see both men but only after she had been on the 1st floor for several minutes and was on her way out of the door. In other words, she did not see both men when she arrived on the first floor, as the WC concluded.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2020, 04:44:25 PM »
Debate it and find out, Walt

My position based on the evidence of the testimony by Shelley and Lovelady is that Victoria Adams could not have seen either man on the first floor until at least several minutes after the shots. This would mean that she and Styles would have waited several minutes after the shots before going down, which in turn does to match with what Dorothy Garner told Barefoot Sanders.

The only way IMO to reconcile the testimony of Victoria Adams with that of Shelley and Lovelady is that she did in fact see both men but only after she had been on the 1st floor for several minutes and was on her way out of the door. In other words, she did not see both men when she arrived on the first floor, as the WC concluded.

Martin, I've read "Girl On The Stairs" and I agree with you....  But the point is, there is no way to prove it.    At the end of the chapter it's still two conflicting stories.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Adams, Shelley and Lovelady
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2020, 04:44:25 PM »