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Author Topic: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building  (Read 41439 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2020, 10:39:02 PM »
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Friends, you are cordially invited to look very closely at these two versions of the crime lab document on the two curtain rods tested by Lt. Day-------------



-------------and ask yourself the question:

What do they tell us about the role played by the numbers 275 and 276 in this affair?

 Thumb1:

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2020, 10:39:02 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2020, 11:26:18 PM »
Again, Oswald himself denied carrying any long package.  So unless you begin with the premise that Oswald lied it doesn't really matter what Frazier said.  To cling to Frazier's estimate as being absolutely precise entails needing to explain why Oswald denied carrying any such package. 
What a silly/senseless statement. It demonstrates a total lack of logical evaluation... An intense belief in something that actually didn't really happen.
It is thought that Fritz was faithfully jotting down notes right there immediately at the time of Oswald's interrogation. That is not what he testified to...or is it believable anyway---
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Mr. BALL. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was anyone else present?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?
Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.
Fritz couldn't recall the presence of any more than two guys? Laughable  :D

Offline Ross Lidell

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2020, 11:29:51 PM »
Coming from a guy who always works towards a pre-determined outcome, that's hilarious.

The only difference between you and Frazier is that Frazier was actually there and you were not. A description like "in his cupped hand and under his armpit" isn't an estimate. It's a sound observation which limits the size the bag could have been. So, yes, Frazier can be damned sure what the exact length was of the bag Oswald carried.

Stop playing silly games. Frazier saw the bag, you didn't. If he says the bag wasn't big enough to conceal a broken down rifle, then it wasn't. And your wishful thinking isn't going to change that.

No. Frazier showed Tom Meros exactly how Oswald carred the bag. Not how he "could have" done it. That's just you again, not wanting to accept the reality that you are seeing with your own eyes. It's pretty pathetic that you now claim that Frazier is not being truthfull because of some bias against the Warren Commission, since he is saying the same thing now as he did on day one, before the Warren Commission even existed. You are just making up stuff to justify not having to believe Frazier. The dishonest one is you!

Childish come back

No. Frazier never said that "he thought" Oswald carried the packet in a certain way. He said he saw how Oswald carried the package and the description hasn't changed from day one until today. Although Frazier did indeed not see the front of Oswald's body as the latter walked away, he did not see the package sticking out over Oswald's shoulder. In the video of Tom Meros it is shown conclusively how high the package would have reached, if there had been a rifle in there, and there is no way that Frazier could have missed seeing a package sticking out of Oswald's shoulder and nearly reaching the top of his head.

BS.. Unlike you, Frazier never had the intention of fooling anybody. There is no "Frazier's theory".... there is only what Frazier saw. You don't like that, but you can not prove him wrong, so you make up a bunch of crap about how Frazier should have behaved. The Tom Meros video is pretty clear and exposes your theory as being completely bogus.

Your flawed assumptions are getting tiresome.

Coming from a guy who always works towards a pre-determined outcome, that's hilarious.


You're trying to be clever so you "declare" I'm doing something that I'm not. What I've done is to consider the various ways that Lee Oswald could have carried his long package: The ways that are consistent with Buell Frazier's description of how he saw Oswald carry the long package. It's not a predetermined outcome. My analysis of Buell Frazier's description of how Oswald carried the long package is that his observation is not complete enough to reach a certain conclusion. The witness's testimony is inconclusive. However, the paper sack in the TSBD with Oswald's right palm-print and left index fingerprint on it is probative: particularly when the position of the prints corresponds to how Frazier said Oswald carried the long paper bag.

No. Frazier never said that "he thought" Oswald carried the packet in a certain way. He said he saw how Oswald carried the package and the description hasn't changed from day one until today. Although Frazier did indeed not see the front of Oswald's body as the latter walked away, he did not see the package sticking out over Oswald's shoulder. In the video of Tom Meros it is shown conclusively how high the package would have reached, if there had been a rifle in there, and there is no way that Frazier could have missed seeing a package sticking out of Oswald's shoulder and nearly reaching the top of his head.

Did you spot the fault in this Meros guy's "it-could-only-be-one-way" theory. He got something fundamental--wrong. Not surprising for someone who refuses to look at "all" the possibilities as to how Oswald carried the long paper-sack.

Frazier may not have said "he thought" but an estimate of length is "a thought" and an incomplete observation of Oswald's body from "all sides" as he carried the package is "a thought" not a proof.


Your flawed assumptions are getting tiresome.


Then don't bother to reply to my posts.

You're frustrated because you've come up against someone who wont capitulate to your contrarianism.

The only difference between you and Frazier is that Frazier was actually there and you were not. A description like "in his cupped hand and under his armpit" isn't an estimate. It's a sound observation which limits the size the bag could have been. So, yes, Frazier can be damned sure what the exact length was of the bag Oswald carried.

There are many differences between Buell Frazier and me. You must be more precise in your writing before you POST.

You're unable or unwilling to consider the multiple ways the package could have been carried "consistent" with Buell Frazier's observation.

You ignore the F A C T that Buell Frazier did not measure the length of Oswald's long paper bag with a ruler or tape-measure. This is not in dispute by any rational person.

Did Buell Frazier ever measure the length between Lee Oswald's "cupped hand" and "inside his armpit"? No he did not: So Frazier cannot be sure of the "exact" length of Oswald's long paper bag.

You must be more precise in thoughts and conclusions. It will save both of us wasted time.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 01:13:20 AM by Ross Lidell »

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2020, 11:29:51 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2020, 11:43:45 PM »

So Oswald cannot be sure of the "exact" length of Oswald's long paper bag.

You must be more precise in thoughts and conclusions. It will save both of us wasted time.

Outstanding! :D

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2020, 11:54:56 PM »
You're frustrated because you've come up against someone who wont capitulate to your contrarianism.
 So Oswald cannot be sure of the "exact" length of Oswald's long paper bag. You must be more precise in thoughts and conclusions. It will save both of us wasted time...don't bother to reply to my posts.
From someone who really flatters himself so much....That is definitely rich :-\
Carry on.

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2020, 11:54:56 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2020, 12:05:12 AM »

Coming from a guy who always works towards a pre-determined outcome, that's hilarious.


You're trying to be clever so you "declare" I'm doing something that I'm not. What I've done is to consider the various ways that Lee Oswald could have carried his long package: The ways that are consistent with Buell Frazier's description of how he saw Oswald carry the long package. It's not a predetermined outcome. My analysis of Buell Frazier's description of how Oswald carried the long package is that his observation is not complete enough to reach a certain conclusion. The witness's testimony is inconclusive. However, the paper sack in the TSBD with Oswald's right palm-print and left index fingerprint on it is probative: particularly when the position of the prints corresponds to how Frazier said Oswald carried the long paper bag.


You're trying to be clever so you "declare" I'm doing something that I'm not. What I've done is to consider the various ways that Lee Oswald could have carried his long package: The ways that are consistent with Buell Frazier's description of how he saw Oswald carry the long package. It's not a predetermined outcome. My analysis of Buell Frazier's description of how Oswald carried the long package is that his observation is not complete enough to reach a certain conclusion. The witness's testimony is inconclusive.

Of course it is a pre-determined outcome as you are working towards the conclusion that what Frazier said wasn't conclusive when in actual fact it was. He told us how Oswald carried the package and that he did not see any package sticking out over Oswald's shoulder.

However, the paper sack in the TSBD with Oswald's right palm-print and left index fingerprint on it is probative: particularly when the position of the prints corresponds to how Frazier said Oswald carried the long paper bag.

It is at best only probative for the fact that Oswald touched that bag at some point. A bag, made from TSBD materials, found at the TSBD with more prints on them, which they couldn't identify (thus leaving open the possibility that others touched the bag also), for which there is not a shred of evidence it ever left the TSBD. And, a bag, I should add, which was shown to Frazier on Friday evening and he denied was the bag he had seen Oswald carry. Before you start using terms as probative, you might want to do some more research.....

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No. Frazier never said that "he thought" Oswald carried the packet in a certain way. He said he saw how Oswald carried the package and the description hasn't changed from day one until today. Although Frazier did indeed not see the front of Oswald's body as the latter walked away, he did not see the package sticking out over Oswald's shoulder. In the video of Tom Meros it is shown conclusively how high the package would have reached, if there had been a rifle in there, and there is no way that Frazier could have missed seeing a package sticking out of Oswald's shoulder and nearly reaching the top of his head.

Did you spot the fault in this Meros guy's "it-could-only-be-one-way" theory. He got something fundamental--wrong. Not surprising for someone who refuses to look at "all" the possibilities as to how Oswald carried the long paper-sack.


There was no fault in Meros' video because he let Frazier tell his story. Period. You are in no position to determine if Meros got anything wrong and there is no need to look at all the possibilities how Oswald could have carried the paper bag when in fact you've got the only man in the world who actually saw Oswald carry the bag telling you what he saw.

The entire "look at other possibilities" is designed for one reason only; to find a way to say that Frazier got it wrong. That's it and don't pretend otherwise because you would only be making a fool of yourself and you've already done that enough times.

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Frazier may not have said "he thought" but an estimate of length is "a thought" and an incomplete observation of Oswald's body from "all sides" as he carried the package is "a thought" not a proof.

When Frazier never used the word "thought" (and he didn't) you are putting words in his mouth. And you can stop going on about this "estimate" crap because Frazier clearly told us the package fitted between Oswald's cupped hand and his armpit. In other words, it was not longer than his arm. That's not an estimate, it's a sound observation. You just don't like it because it doesn't fit with your biased agenda.

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Your flawed assumptions are getting tiresome.


Then don't bother to reply to my posts.

You're frustrated because you've come up against someone who wont capitulate to your contrarianism.

As long as you keep spreading falsehoods and misrepresentations, I will call you out on them. And btw, there is no need for me to get frustrated. You are way to insignificant to me for that. And you don't have to capitulate (whatever the hell that means) to me either. Just convince me that you are right by presenting factual, sound and conclusive arguments instead of stubbornly repeating the same hollow unsupported claims over and over again.

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The only difference between you and Frazier is that Frazier was actually there and you were not. A description like "in his cupped hand and under his armpit" isn't an estimate. It's a sound observation which limits the size the bag could have been. So, yes, Frazier can be damned sure what the exact length was of the bag Oswald carried.

There are many differences between Buell Frazier and me. You must be more precise in your writing before you POST.

You're unable or unwilling to consider the multiple ways the package could have been carried "consistent" with Buell Frazier's observation.

You ignore the F A C T that Buell Frazier did not measure the length of Oswald's long paper bag with a ruler or tape-measure. This is not in dispute by any rational person.

Did Buell Frazier ever measure the length between Lee Oswald's "cupped hand" and "inside his armpit"? No he did not: So Oswald cannot be sure of the "exact" length of Oswald's long paper bag.

You must be more precise in thoughts and conclusions. It will save both of us wasted time.

And there he goes again, condescending as always and full of sh*t. What I do not ignore is that the only witness who actually saw the package being carried by Oswald has been telling us all his life how Oswald carried it. There is only one way the package could have been carried consistent with Frazier's observation and that is how it was carried. Period.

Unlike you I don't need to invent reasons to doubt his testimony and repeating your lame arguments to discredit Frazier doesn't make them come true.

But let me ask you this question; When you have first hand testimony from the only person who actually saw how Oswald carried package, and he tells you exactly how the package was carried, what possible reason would there be to look for other ways he could have carried the package?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 08:49:49 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2020, 11:17:54 AM »
Thank you, Mr Craig!  Thumb1:

The dates on the crime lab document tell us that these are most probably not the curtain rods that Mr Oswald brought to work that morning--------------but the replacement curtain rods that were quietly deposited in the Paine garage by Agent Howlett (or one of his men) and 'found' during Ms Paine's in situ WC testimony of 23 March.

The rods Mr Oswald brought to work were disappeared after Agent Howlett picked them up from Lt. Day at 7.50 am on 24 March.

Friends, note the date on this document---------------the day after two curtain rods were submitted by Agent Howlett to Lt. Day to be tested for Mr Oswald's fingerprints!



The WC ask the FBI's help in examining the Beckley room but not in examining the primary site of interest-------------the Paine garage? What shenanigans!

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2020, 02:46:34 PM »
The witness's testimony is inconclusive. However, the paper sack in the TSBD with Oswald's right palm-print and left index fingerprint on it is probative:

Probative of what, exactly?

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particularly when the position of the prints corresponds to how Frazier said Oswald carried the long paper bag.

Except they don't.  Pat Speer dispensed with that notion quite nicely.

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4c

"The palmprint (A) was near the middle of the bag. The fingerprint (B) was near the bottom of the bag. The Warren Commission lied. There was nothing about these prints to indicate something heavy had been carried in the bag. It was actually just the opposite."

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Frazier may not have said "he thought" but an estimate of length is "a thought" and an incomplete observation of Oswald's body from "all sides" as he carried the package is "a thought" not a proof.

And your notion of how he "could have" carried a longer bag is worth even less.

Quote
You ignore the F A C T that Buell Frazier did not measure the length of Oswald's long paper bag with a ruler or tape-measure. This is not in dispute by any rational person.

You're ignoring the F A C T that Frazier also saw how much of the back seat was taken up by the package.

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Re: This is how the rifle was gotten into the building
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2020, 02:46:34 PM »