The Smell of Gunpowder and the Smell of Bigfoot

[Jack Trojan]

What knoll shooter?

Wasn't bigfoot supposed to be the knoll shooter in this analogy?

[Bill Chapman]

It appears that Nicholas Turner has solved a mystery, at least to my satisfaction.

Below is a frame from the Wiegman film showing the “Smoke Cloud”:



This was discovered by Robert Groden who published this claim in his book “The Killing of a President”.

This claim, on the surface seems dubious because this frame was taken about 7 seconds after the headshot. Could a gun smoke cloud hang around that long?

Maybe it could. Some deeds are so dark that the paranormal may take effect. In these cases, a gun smoke cloud may hang around for several seconds, perhaps much longer, as a sign to any passerby of the dark deed that was committed there. Indeed, there are some who hold that this dark cloud may hang over the Grassy Knoll to this day.


However, Nicholas Turner has pointed out the Towner 2 slide:



And there it is, the “Gun Smoke Cloud Tree” in all its glory.


I believe it was Robert Groden that first used this picture to “prove” that there was a gun smoke cloud hovering over the Grassy Knoll. He had many pictures that he could have used to “prove” this. The problem is that most of these pictures were in color, which clearly show a tree turning yellow in the fall. But a black and which photograph is much harder to interpret. It could be gun smoke cloud, which would be gray, of course. Or it could be a tree that is turning yellow, which would also look gray in the black and white photo. Groden, being the genius that he is, went with a black and white image.


Question:

Does anyone know if this tree is still there?



From time to time, people on this forum state that they are going to visit Dallas and intent to take some pictures of Dealey Plaza while they are there. The next LNer to visit in November should check to see if the tree is still there and if so, get a picture of himself under the Gun Smoke Cloud Tree. It would be great if you can get some black and white shots as well as the usual color shots.

And even better if you can get a picture of you and Robert Groden under the tree. I believe he can be found at the Plaza from time to time. No, you should skip the Groden part because you would have to slip him a 20. But, if you can skip the payment part and just drag him over to the tree, that would be great.

[Bill Chapman]

Wasn't bigfoot supposed to be the knoll shooter in this analogy?

It's rumoured that Bigfoot was on the roof behind the Hertz sign on the TSBD roof, so he wasn't really a knoll shooter

[Joe Elliott]

The premise of this thread is a non sequitur. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your premise that the smell of a bigfoot is akin to the smell of gun powder from a puff of smoke, which some CTs saw in a 57 year old, B/W, grainy, overexposed photo allegedly taken 7 seconds after the headshot, and your analogy was intended to suggest that witnesses who smelled smoke were having olfactory hallucinations (phantosmia), and you attempted to link the 2 by suggesting that if bigfoot smell is phantosmia because bigfoot doesn't exist, then the gun powder smell wasn't real, because there was no knoll shooter? (whew) If that's about right then your non sequitur faulty analogy is also circular. We have a BINGO!

I will correct you about what you say I am saying.

I make two separate claims:

1.   Under the outdoor, windy conditions, it is unlikely that any witnesses riding in a vehicle of the motorcade received enough gun smoke to actually smell gun smoke. Regardless of whether there was only one rifle firing three shots or four rifles firing eight shots.

2.   Witness can easily smell what they anticipate they should be smelling.


I don’t have proof that none of the witnesses could smell gun smoke.

But on the other hand, the reports of witnesses smelling gun smoke should not be taken as a reliable indicator that there really was enough gun smoke in the air for they to smell. One should not treat these reports as “proof” that there was enough gun smoke in the air to smell, as many CTers do. It is actually an unreliable indicator.

I’m not saying I have proof that there was insufficient gun smoke in the air to be smelt but that CTers do not have enough proof or compelling reasons to believe there probably was.


Claim 2 is supported by the strong association of sightings of Bigfoot with the strong unmistakable smell of Bigfoot and the sound reasons we have to believe that Bigfoot does not exist.

[Jack Trojan]

Claim 2 is supported by the strong association of sightings of Bigfoot with the strong unmistakable smell of Bigfoot and the sound reasons we have to believe that Bigfoot does not exist.

What about reported sightings which are conjured up when someone smells skunk cabbage and assumes it's bigfoot? That isn't phantosmia and isn't a sound reason to believe bigfoot doesn't exist. Like the premise of this thread, it is a non sequitur.

[Joe Elliott]

What about reported sightings which are conjured up when someone smells skunk cabbage and assumes it's bigfoot? That isn't phantosmia and isn't a sound reason to believe bigfoot doesn't exist. Like the premise of this thread, it is a non sequitur.

The main reason for thinking Bigfoot does not exist is that we would have found proof a long time ago if it did. A captured Bigfoot. The body of a Bigfoot. The skeleton of a Bigfoot. The skull of a Bigfoot. DNA from a Bigfoot, from its stool, hair, etc. which should be easy to find. None of this has been found as of 2020.

Phantosmia is not what I have been talking about. Phantosmia is a chronic condition. It occurs a lot with a subject. What I am talking about is a one-time occurrence of phantom smells. Smelling a foul odor when a person thinks they are in the presence of a Bigfoot. Smelling gun smoke when they think/know that gunshots have been fired.

Again, my main point is not that we have proof that gun smoke was not detectable to any of the riders in the cars of the motorcade. It’s that CTers do not have proof of such gun smoke from the witness’s accounts. It is too easy for them to imagine they are smelling what they expect to smell.

Question:

Do you think that sometimes people imagine they smell something that they expect to be able to smell? Yes or no.

[Brian Roselle]

I’ve often wondered about these types of effects. I know it’s something that would be very hard to measure, but I’ve always wondered how the mind might distort events during a rush of adrenalin during perceived times of stress (like realization of bullets being fired and people being shot).
Things like association of timing or perception of time and time spacing and how it changes as the perception of danger rapidly sets in, in this case after the realization that loud bangs were shots, and not firecrackers, had set in.
The related point here I wonder about is the association of sulfur smell with gunpowder while hearing gunshots.
I recall the cheaper gasoline or diesel  in large cars in the early 60’s would smell nasty, maybe even sulfur like, when the cars were accelerated fast. Sweet crude (low sulfur) was desired to make these fuels  help keep those levels down and increase the efficacy of tetra ethyl lead as an octane booster in gasoline. 
Just a possibility for how people might have associated the smell of accelerating cars back then to guns when shots were being fired.  It wouldn’t be so much an imaginary smell, but just how they associated the sense of smell with the concurrent events as they unfolded at that time.

[Joe Elliott]

I’ve often wondered about these types of effects. I know it’s something that would be very hard to measure, but I’ve always wondered how the mind might distort events during a rush of adrenalin during perceived times of stress (like realization of bullets being fired and people being shot).
Things like association of timing or perception of time and time spacing and how it changes as the perception of danger rapidly sets in, in this case after the realization that loud bangs were shots, and not firecrackers, had set in.
The related point here I wonder about is the association of sulfur smell with gunpowder while hearing gunshots.
I recall the cheaper gasoline or diesel  in large cars in the early 60’s would smell nasty, maybe even sulfur like, when the cars were accelerated fast. Sweet crude (low sulfur) was desired to make these fuels  help keep those levels down and increase the efficacy of tetra ethyl lead as an octane booster in gasoline. 
Just a possibility for how people might have associated the smell of accelerating cars back then to guns when shots were being fired.  It wouldn’t be so much an imaginary smell, but just how they associated the sense of smell with the concurrent events as they unfolded at that time.

I agree with this. I choose the Bigfoot example instead of looking into something like people smelling hotdogs from 100 feet away at the approach of a vendor, even though the wind was blowing the wrong way. Maybe the way the wind swirls, they could really smell the hotdogs.

But with Bigfoot, reasonable people can conclude that Bigfoot probably does not exist. So, the common correlation between seeing a Bigfoot (maybe really a person or a standing bear) and terrible smells is a clear example of people imaging they are smelling something they think they should be smelling. I can’t imagine that every time there is a standing bear, there is also a nearby skunk.

If this commonly happens with Bigfoot sightings, I don’t see why something similar couldn’t happen when there is gunfire.