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Author Topic: If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?  (Read 107531 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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What evidence do you believe is lacking from John's list that would prove to your satisfaction that Oswald ordered and received his rifle?  It is comprehensive and exactly the type of evidence that law enforcement would use to prove that fact.  And has often done so in many other cases.  But you suggest it is a "bunch of assumptions."  What you appear to be suggesting is that no amount of evidence could ever prove that fact by applying an impossible standard of proof and then concluding the evidence is lacking for that reason.  A Catch 22 - it is impossible to prove a fact if facts are impossible to prove.   If not, then explain to us what you would consider as "actual evidence" sufficient to prove that Oswald ordered and received the rifle.

What evidence do you believe is lacking from John's list that would prove to your satisfaction that Oswald ordered and received his rifle?

The only direct evidence there is, that somebody using the name Hidell ordered a rifle from Kleins, is a handwritten order form and money order that may or may not have been filled out by Oswald. You have no evidence at all that Oswald actually bought the money order and all the other Kleins docucuments as well as Waldmann's testimony are derived from that one order form, of which we don't even have the original. Basically, all you really have to tie Oswald to the purchase of the MC rifle is the questional opinion of a handwriting expert. That's it!

In other words; if the order form and money order received by Kleins are not written by Oswald, all the other Kleins documents and Waldmann's testimony are fruits of a poisonous tree and prove nothing.

Just in case, you don't understand what I am saying, this is how it works; a person using the name Hidell (who may or may not be Oswald) uses a handwritten order form and a money order to order a rifle from Kleins. Upon receipt of the order form, Kleins makes a microfilm copy of the documents and destroys the originals. They then proceed to prepare the invoice and shipping documents. None of that involves Oswald in any way, shape or form, and all of it is only a consequence of the receipt of the order form. The WC then turns to Waldmann who basically tells them nothing more than that he believes that the internal documents justify the conclusion that the rifle must have been send to whoever ordered it. He doesn't provide any proof of the actual shipment or the reception of it because he hasn't got any.

That's why I say there is no evidence that Oswald received a rifle from Kleins. If you disagree, just post that evidence (not assumptions!) and I'll admit I'm wrong.

It is comprehensive and exactly the type of evidence that law enforcement would use to prove that fact.

No, it's not comprehensive and most of what you call evidence is nothing more than a highly questionable prosecutorial circumstantial narrative

But you suggest it is a "bunch of assumptions."

Circumstantial evidence is by definition nothing more than assumptions to connect the dots between pieces of direct physical evidence to create a narrative. Circumstantial evidence is the weakest type of evidence there is and has the highest risk of error as many circumstances can have multiple explanations.

What you appear to be suggesting is that no amount of evidence could ever prove that fact by applying an impossible standard of proof and then concluding the evidence is lacking for that reason.

Nope... that's not what I am suggesting at all. I am suggesting that when you make a claim like "Oswald's rifle was stored in Ruth Paine's garage" that you have at least some physical evidence to back up that claim ..... The whole saga of Oswald's trip to Irving is one assumption on top of another and when you closely examine the entire "rifle in the blanket" narrative, you end up with a multitude of assumptions for which there isn't a shred of evidence.

A Catch 22 - it is impossible to prove a fact if facts are impossible to prove.

There is no catch 22.... When you claim that Oswald received a rifle from Kleins, you should be able to provide evidence for that. It simply won't do to say that he was photographed with a rifle, so he must have received it from Kleins, when the rifle he is holding in the photograph could just as easily have belonged to somebody else. We have been down this path before. Can you seriously exclude, on solid grounds, the possibility that the rifle Oswald is holding in the photograph belonged to somebody else? Now, don't start asking your usual stupid questions, like who I think it belonged to etc.... Just give me a factual reason why that rifle in the photograph must be owned by Oswald and Oswald alone.... Go on then, I'm waiting

It is also complete BS to claim that just because Oswald ordered a rifle in March (if that's what he did) and was photographed with a rifle (if that was the same one), the rifle stored in Ruth Paine's garage (if there ever was one to begin with) from late September to 11/22/63 must be the same rifle that he allegedly ordered from Kleins.

The holes in the official narrative that you have to explain away by speculation and assumptions, rather than actual evidence, are as massive as meteor craters. 

If not, then explain to us what you would consider as "actual evidence" sufficient to prove that Oswald ordered and received the rifle.

Some sort of document confirming the actual receipt of the package, would go a long way. Not only to prove he received the rifle but also that he thus must have ordered it. Think about it for a second; Kleins is sending a rifle which has already been paid for to a P.O. Box in Dallas. If they do not obtain some sort of document confirming the receipt of the package, how are they ever going to prove that the client has received what he ordered? In other words, it's in Kleins interest and just good common business sense to ensure that the recipient signs for the merchandise. So, where is the receipt?

Anybody can fill in an order form (and even forge a handwriting if need be) and send it to Kleins, but nobody other than Oswald himself could have collected the package containing the rifle. So, show me proof that Oswald received the rifle and I'll instantly accept that he must have ordered it. Is that good enough for you?

Now, why do I doubt it isn't?.... Hmmmmm
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 02:45:09 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Offline Thomas Graves

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What evidence do you believe is lacking from John's list that would prove to your satisfaction that Oswald ordered and received his rifle?

The only direct evidence there is that somebody using the name Hidell ordered a rifle from Kleins is the handwritten order form that may or may not have been filled out by Oswald. All the other Kleins docucuments and Waldmann's testimony are derived from that one order form, of which we don't even have the original. Basically, all you really have to tie Oswald to the purchase of the MC rifle is the opinion of a handwriting expert. That's it!

In other words; if the order form and money order received by Kleins are not written by Oswald, all the other Kleins documents as well as Waldmann's testimony are fruits of a poisonous tree.

Just in case, you don't understand what I am saying, this is how it works; Hidell (who may or may not be Oswald) uses a handwritten order form and a money order to order a rifle from Kleins. Upon receipt of the order form, Kleins makes a microfilm copy of the document and destroys the original. They then proceed to prepare the invoice and shipping documents. None of that involves Oswald in any way, shape or form, and all of it is only a consequence of the receipt of the order form. The WC then turns to Waldmann who basically tells then nothing more than that he believes that the internal documents justify the conclusion that the rifle must have been send to whoever ordered it. He doesn't provide any proof of the actual shipment or the reception of it because he hasn't got any.

That's why I say there is no evidence that Oswald received a rifle from Kleins. If you disagree, just post that evidence (not assumptions!) and I'll admit I'm wrong.

It is comprehensive and exactly the type of evidence that law enforcement would use to prove that fact.

No, it's not comprehensive and most of what you call evidence is nothing more than a highly questionable prosecutorial circumstantial narrative

But you suggest it is a "bunch of assumptions."

Circumstantial evidence is by definition nothing more than assumptions to connect the dots between pieces of direct physical evidence.

What you appear to be suggesting is that no amount of evidence could ever prove that fact by applying an impossible standard of proof and then concluding the evidence is lacking for that reason.

Nope... that's not what I am suggesting at all. I am suggesting that when you make a claim like "Oswald's rifle was stored in Ruth Paine's garage" that you have at least some physical evidence to connect the dots..... The whole saga of Oswald's trip to Irving is one assumption on top of another!

A Catch 22 - it is impossible to prove a fact if facts are impossible to prove.

There is no catch 22.... When you claim that Oswald received a rifle from Kleins, you should be able to provide evidence for that. It simply won't do to say that he was photographed with a rifle, so he must have received it from Kleins, when the rifle he is holding in the photograph could just as easily have belonged to somebody else. We have been down this path before. Can you seriously exclude, on solid grounds, the possibility that the rifle Oswald is holding in the photograph belonged to somebody else? Now, don't start asking your usual stupid questions, like who I think it belonged to etc.... Just give me a factual reason why that rifle in the photograph must be owned by Oswald.... Go on then, I'm waiting

It is also complete BS to claim that just because Oswald ordered a rifle in March (if that's what he did) and was photographed with a rifle (if that was the same one), the rifle stored in Ruth Paine's garage (if there ever was one to begin with) from late September to 11/22/63 must be the same rifle that he allegedly ordered from Kleins.

The holes in the official narrative that you have to explain away by speculation and assumptions, rather than actual evidence, are as massive as meteor craters. 

If not, then explain to us what you would consider as "actual evidence" sufficient to prove that Oswald ordered and received the rifle.

Dear Marty,

If Hidell wasn't Oswald, then who was he?

A guy whose real name was Hidell?

An evil, evil, evil CIA / FBI / DPD agent or officer?

A humanitarian KGB ... saint?

(You tend to believe it was the former, right?)

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Is handwriting analysis done by specialists at the FBI to be ignored when it tells you something you don't want to hear?

PPS  Can you prove that "Hidell's" money order /  paperwork was handled suspiciously differently than that of other customers by the same mail order gun company(s) / post office(s) / bank(s) / etc?

PPPS  How many conspirators do you figure were involved in the assassination and "the cover up"?

Hundreds?  Thousands?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 04:09:08 PM by Thomas Graves »

Offline Bill Chapman

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CTers & JAQers have exactly zero evidence to prove that AnybodyButOswald even so much as made an attempt to shoot Kennedy that day. CTers & JAQers have proven nothing to show that someone other than Oswald shot Tippit. And if any of you CTers or JAQers can prove someone other than [name your shooter] knew there was going to be an attempt made on Kennedy that day, feel free to call a press conference.

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Offline Martin Weidmann

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Dear Marty,

If Hidell wasn't Oswald, then who was he?

A guy whose real name was Hidell?

An evil, evil, evil CIA / FBI / DPD agent or officer?

A humanitarian KGB ... saint?

(You tend to believe it was the former, right?)

--  MWT  ;)

PS  Is handwriting analysis done by specialists at the FBI to be ignored when it tells you something you don't want to hear?

PPS  Can you prove that "Hidell's" money order /  paperwork was handled suspiciously differently than that of other customers by the same mail order gun company(s) / post office(s) / bank(s) / etc?

PPPS  How many conspirators do you figure were involved in the assassination and "the cover up"?

Hundreds?  Thousands?

PS  Is handwriting analysis done by specialists at the FBI to be ignored when it tells you something you don't want to hear?

You clearly have no knowledge about handwriting analysis otherwise you wouldn't ask such a silly question

But let me help you;

1. There isn't a handwriting expert anywhere in the world who can say with 100% certainty that something was written by a particular person to the exclusion of everybody else.

2. Handwriting experts look for items of resemblance between a questioned document and other documents that are certified to having been written by a person.
In civil and criminal cases the invidual is asked to provide several originals of the same handwritten text, written in the presence of an offical like a notary public. In this case, with Oswald being dead, the FBI handwriting experts only had old documents to compare with that they were told had been written by Oswald.

3. One of the ways in which a handwriting expert makes a determination is by comparing the pressure that was applied by the pen when the document was written as well as the flow of the pen leaving an ink trail on the paper. This can of course not be done when the questioned document is a microfilm photo copy.

Any handwriting expert that claims he, despite these problems, can say with 100% certainty that a particular person has written a particular text is a liar and a fraud!


PPS  Can you prove that "Hidell's" money order /  paperwork was handled suspiciously differently than that of other customers by the same mail order gun company(s) / post office(s) / bank(s) / etc?

No, and I don't need or have to... In fact, in making my point, I assume that the transaction was indeed conducted in exactly the same way as all the other transactions.

PPPS  How many conspirators do you figure were involved in the assassination and "the cover up"?

Who said anything about conspirators? The claim is that Oswald (pretending to be Hidell) ordered and received a rifle from Kleins.... That needs to be proven. It's really very simply. I'm surprised that you don't understand that.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 07:19:40 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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CTers & JAQers have exactly zero evidence to prove that AnybodyButOswald even so much as made an attempt to shoot Kennedy that day. CTers & JAQers have proven nothing to show that someone other than Oswald shot Tippit. And if any of you CTers or JAQers can prove someone other than [name your shooter] knew there was going to be an attempt made on Kennedy that day, feel free to call a press conference.

Not the old "Oswald is guilty by default, if you can't prove somebody else did it" crap again?

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Offline John Iacoletti

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More worthless assumptions, if Ruth did in fact go through Oswald's belongings and did indeed find Oswald's rifle

Speaking of worthless assumptions...

Offline John Iacoletti

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Here we go with another litany of "Mytton" disinformation.

1. Oswald fills out a coupon for a rifle and mails it to Kleins

There's no evidence as to who mailed this to Kleins.  As for "filled out", that's based on unscientific handwriting "analysis" of 2 block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy (from microfilm that is now "missing") of a 2-inch order coupon.

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2. Oswald's rifle C2766 was sent from Kleins to Oswald's PO box.

There is no evidence of such a package going through the mail system and being delivered or picked up by Oswald or anybody else.

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3. Oswald was photographed with C2766.

Oswald was photographed with a rifle that may or may not be C2766.

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4. Marina and Jeanne de Mohrenschildt testified to Oswald possessing a rifle.

What do you think that is evidence of?

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5. Michael Paine moved an approx 37 inch blanket package which he guesses contained some sort of pipe and/or a folding shovel, on the floor of the garage.

What do you think that is evidence of?

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6. Marina testified that she saw a rifle in the blanket.

Marina peeked in the end of a rolled up and tied blanket 6 weeks earlier and saw part of a wooden stock that she took to be a gun.

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7. The night before the assassination Oswald makes an unexpected visit to Irving

What do you think that is evidence of?

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8. Oswald leaves most of his money and his wedding ring with Marina

What do you think that is evidence of?

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9. On the 22nd Oswald is seen in the morning with a long package.

What do you think that is evidence of?

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10. Oswald tells different stories as to the contents of the package.

Unproven.  It's all hearsay.

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11. Oswald tells a different story than Frazier and Randle about where the package was in Frazier's car.

Unproven.  It's all hearsay.

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12. Marina directs the police to what is now an empty blanket and appears concerned that its empty.

What do you think that is evidence of?

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13. Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work.

LOL

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14. Oswald's rifle was found with Oswald's prints.

Wrong.  Prints were found by the trigger guard that were insufficient for purposes of identification.  And a heretofore unknown single partial palmprint showed up a week later on an index card.

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15. Oswald's rifle was found with multiple fibers which matched the multiple fibers in Oswald's arrest shirt.

...that couldn't be matched to any specific garment.

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16. Oswald flees work within a few minutes

"flees".  LOL

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17. Oswald takes buses and cabs in his rush to get out of town.

You don't know he was in a rush to get out of town.  "Buses and cabs", plural?  Really?

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18. Oswald gets out way past his rooming house.

What do you think that is evidence of?

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19. Oswald kills a cop.

LOL

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20. Oswald resists arrest and attempts to kill more officers with a revolver.

LOL

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21. The revolver that Oswald was arrested with exclusively matches shells that Oswald discarded at the Tippit crime scene.

The shells allegedly retrieved by civilians from an unsecured crime scene (2 missing the initials that J.M. Poe originally stated he scratched on them, and 2 that the Davises could not identify as the same shells) matched a revolver that Gerald Hill pulled out of his pocket 1.5-2 hours after Oswald's arrest.

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22. Oswald jacket is retrieved from a parking lot he was confirmed as entering.

"Oswald jacket".  LOL.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Anybody can fill in an order form (and even forge a handwriting if need be) and send it to Kleins, but nobody other than Oswald himself could have collected the package containing the rifle.

Well, if you believe Holmes (and I realize that's a big IF), anybody could have walked up to the window, given them a box number, and collected a package.

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