Free Book Now Available -- Hasty Judgment: Why the JFK Case Is Not Closed

[Bill Chapman]

'WC’s NRA Master-rated riflemen'
You seem to have a fondness for puffing up people's credentials. So I guess that means these these master-rated riflemen were somebodies, huh. Seems Oswald wanted to be a somebody as well. And he had bigger fish to fry than dummy targets; and didn't have to match somebody else's time.

'Oswald was “very punctual”
Kennedy would agree with that..

[John Mytton]

It would appear that your only evidence Oswald faked his time sheet is that you believe he was buying a money order during that time.

Huh? The money order written in Oswald's handwriting is most definitely evidence.



For comparison purposes the HSCA acquired a number of documents written by Oswald.

Mr. KLEIN - At this time would you please be seated, Mr McNally. I would now direct your attention to exhibit JFK F-504, which is a microfilm reproduction of an order form to Klein's Sporting Goods Co. for a rifle, plus the envelope in which the order form was sent; and JFK F-509, which is a money order made out to Klein's Sporting Goods Co., both of which documents have the name Hidell on them.
Mr. MCNALLY - I have both of them.
Mr. KLEIN - JFK F-504 and F-509; do you recognize those documents?
Mr. MCNALLY - I do.
Mr. KLEIN - Did the entire panel have an opportunity to examine those documents?
Mr. MCNALLY - They did.
Mr. KLEIN - Did the panel reach a conclusion with respect to those documents?
Mr. MCNALLY - They did.
Mr. KLEIN - What was that conclusion?
Mr. MCNALLY - That JFK exhibit F-504 and F-509 were written by the same person, again with the caveat. JFK exhibit F-504 is a photo reproduction of a microfilm.
Mr. KLEIN - The document, which is marked F-509, the money order, is an original document; is it not?
Mr. MCNALLY - It was; yes.
Mr. KLEIN - And your conclusion is they were written by the same person who wrote the other documents?
Mr. MCNALLY - That is right.

And perhaps you missed my previous post that there is rock solid evidence that Oswald had a history of leaving work without permission.

Lee Harvey Oswald became employed by William B. Reily Company, Inc. as a greaser and oiler maintenance man on May 10, 1963. His employment terminated on July 19, 1963. During the latter portion of his employment, I served as his immediate supervisor. As his supervisor I was aware of Oswald's performance or lack thereof of his duties.
There were occasions from time to time when I was unable to locate Oswald in and about the premises and learned that he was in the habit of absenting himself from the premises without leave and visiting a service station establishment adjacent to the Reily Coffee Company known as Alba's Crescent City Garage.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/barbe.htm

Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY - He worked for me.
...
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm

JohnM

[John Iacoletti]

Huh? The money order written in Oswald's handwriting is most definitely evidence.

Evidence of him faking his time sheet?  I don't think so.

And perhaps you missed my previous post that there is rock solid evidence that Oswald had a history of leaving work without permission.

Tells you nothing about whether he was able to leave J-C-S without being noticed.  And it's very arguable that he necessarily left the TSBD without permission. He could have overheard Shelley dismissing employees without being told face-to-face.

[John Mytton]

That’s not the kind of job that you can skip out for half an hour or more, or show up half an hour late,

"half an hour or more"?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Post Office was half a mile from Jaggars and according to google maps at average walking speed this distance could comfortably be completed in 11 minutes and considering Oswald knew he had to be at work very soon, Oswald would have been at the Post Office register at precisely 8 AM and let's be generous and say that it takes 4 minutes to buy and fill in 10 words on the Money Order which leaves us with a maximum time of 15 minutes but being realistic this time would likely be about 10 minutes and who hasn't been ten-fifteen minutes late for work and blamed it on a bus, traffic or whatever. As long as the job gets done, nobody in my experience would be that upset to dock you the 10-15 minutes.

Mr. JENNER. You are president of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, 525 Browder, here in Dallas, is that right?
Mr. STOVALL. Right.

The U.S. Post Office and Courthouse is an historic post office and courthouse building located at 400 North Ervay Street in the City Center District of downtown Dallas, Texas (USA).



JohnM

[John Mytton]

And it's very arguable that he necessarily left the TSBD without permission. He could have overheard Shelley dismissing employees without being told face-to-face.

Who did Shelley dismiss and at what time?

JohnM

[Michael T. Griffith]

The 10-digit number on the front of the money order does not prove it was cashed and does not prove it was processed through the Federal Reserve System. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I am going to take the liberty of quoting from one of David Josephs' replies to David Von Pein on this issue:

What DVP here fails to mention is the 4 different reports of finding this Money Order ....  and that it would have been the TREASURY who had the tape created by these punch cards.  The TAPE which connects the serial number to the FILE LOCATOR NUMBER.

Following encashment of a check by the payee, it is deposited sooner or later in a commercial bank. The bank will honor the check after proper examination and then will apply to its cognizant Federal Reserve Bank for the reimbursement, which usually takes the form of a credit to the bank's reserve account. The Federal Reserve Bank then applies to the Treasurer of the United States for reimbursement of the amount which it has credited to the commercial bank. When the Treasurer has electronically examined the check to determine that it bears an authorized disbursing officer's symbol and serial number and that there is not a stop-payment notice against it, the check is considered "paid." Checks are received in batches of about 1,000 checks, accompanied by detailed listings.

One of these 4 brings us to the USPS National Records center in Maryland where the Money Order was supposedly retrieved by Robert Jackson and given to J. Harold Marks who in turn gives it to Secret Service SA PARKER at 10:10pm. 

Problem being, Dave, the Fed Records Center is not the US Treasury.  the FILE LOCATOR NUMBER appears to only be used by the Treasury.  At what point that day does the SS/FBI/USPS acquire this file locator number?

Why is it not until that night that "computers" were turned on at the Fed Records Center by Secret Service "Recording" Agent BURKE claiming it would be 15 mins for the computer to warm up so they could find the PMO. 

DAVE - What info would they be feeding into that system and from where did they get it?  According to WCD87 p118 SS Asst Chief Paterni asks SAIC GAIGLEIN to find the PMO and is given the serial number, March 12, $21.45, KLEINS and HIDELL.

About that same time Postal Inspector KNIGHT tells SS SA GRIFFITHS the PMO would be sent to Kansas City and the PIs there are already looking.

at 8:55pm EST, 70 minutes before it is actually found, SS SA GRIFFITHS learns the original PMO has been recovered "By Postal Inspectors" and is on the way to Asst Chief of the SS PATERNI.

You see Dave... there being a file locator is nice - if a PMO was forged we'd expect to see the number...  if the PMO was NOT forged... we'd expect to see the MO STUB which remains attached to the MO BOOK.  Neither of which are in evidence and would have looked like this before being detached...  The stub on the far right would still be in the book even if Oswald lost his copy of the receipt - yet given that Oswald kept EVERYTHING, kinda strange this stub was not among his belongings...

5912320373514_LHOMoneyorderincolorwithsignaturecomparisonsandwhatthestublookslike.thumb.jpg.c057888cfaa41f0be9bff81c0e961717.jpg

This thread deals with the required processing marks on the back of this PMO.  The STAMP placing "50 91144" is the KLEIN STAMP for depositing checks...  Once it hits the 1st Nat'l of Chicago, it and the Federal Reserve Bank will process this check so the USPS can transfer the money to the correct bank.

=================================================================================

1.    The Bank, now the new Payee, forwards the PMO to their affiliated Federal Reserve Bank for reimbursement of funds and processing USPS Fed Res Sys process
a.     All money orders are forwarded through the Federal Reserve Banking System, to which commercial banks have access
                                         i.    For this standard: Money order means a U.S. Postal Money Order.
b.     The postmaster general has the usual right of a drawee to examine money orders presented for payment by banks through the Federal Reserve System and to refuse payment of money orders, and has a reasonable time after presentation to make each examination. Provisional credit is given to the Federal Reserve Bank when it furnishes the money orders for payment by the postmaster general. Money orders are deemed paid only after examination is completed, subject to the postmaster general’s right to make reclamation under 3.4.

c.     The presenting bank and the endorser of a money order presented for payment are deemed to guarantee to the postmaster general that all prior endorsements are genuine, whether an express guarantee to that effect is placed on the money order. When an endorsement is made by a person other than the payee personally, the presenting bank and the endorser are deemed to guarantee to the postmaster general, in addition to other warranties, that the person who so endorsed had capacity and authority to endorse the money order for the payee.

d.     The postmaster general has the right to demand refund from the presenting bank of the amount of a paid money order if, after payment, the money order is found to be stolen, or to have a forged or unauthorized endorsement, or to contain any material defect or alteration not discovered on examination. Such right includes, but is not limited to, the right to make reclamation of the amount by which a genuine money order with a proper and authorized endorsement has been raised. Such right must be exercised within a reasonable time after the postmaster general discovers that the money order is stolen, bears a forged or unauthorized endorsement, or is otherwise defective. If refund is not made by the presenting bank within 60 days after demand, the postmaster general takes such actions as may be necessary to protect the interests of the United States.
 
2.    The Federal Reserve Bank will record the transaction and also include markings on the back of the PMO in accordance to their batch processing rules.

a.    Today, the Federal Reserve Banking System (FRBS) processes everything electronically yet fairly recently the paper products themselves were sent through Batch Processing machines.  Section 7040 of Chapter 7000 of the “Procedures for Processing Postal Money Orders” tells us:

                                         i.    Section 7040 -Processing Fit Money Orders
7030.25 -Fit Money Order. A money order that can be completely processed on high speed processing equipment.

·         Batching and Listing Fit Money Orders. Paper money orders are MICR printed with the routing code (including a routing number of 0000-0020 or 000000204) and the serial number with check digit. The routing number is also preprinted in the upper right corner on the form, which is in the location and front as prescribed by the ABA.

FRBs will process FIT money orders as follows:

·         Receive money orders from banks and process on high speed equipment in the manner most compatible with the processing of other categories of cash items.
         Prepare batches of no more than 500 items.

·         Insert (in numerical sequence) USPS batch Locator Control Documents so that one is filed at the beginning of each batch of money orders to be read.

·         Create a paper-tape list of serial numbers with optional check digit and amount of each money order read. The list will show the batch number and a subtotal for each batch with an overall total of all money orders listed on the paper tape.

·         The total amount of fit items should be entered on PS Form 1901, code 100.

·         Money orders bearing unreadable MICR characters in the on-us field are not to be rejected and handled as mutilated. List the characters that can be read on the paper tape as a reconcilement aid.

                                        ii.    Section 7040 & 7050 (Manual process)

·         7050.20 -Insert a USPS Batch Locator Control Document at the beginning of each batch of mutilated money orders.

·         7050.30 -Prepare an adding machine listing of each batch showing the following information:

a.     FRB name or code at the top.

b.     The amount of each item.

c.     The total amount of the batch.

d.     FRB clearance date.

e.     Batch number

                                       iii.    Section 7070 - Processing Old Style Money Orders

·         "Punch card" money orders that have the ABA routing number 0000-0119 will be handled as mutilated items. They should be identified as old style "punch card" money orders on the PS Form 1901 for code 004

 =====================================

Notice the "punch card" of these OLD STYLE PMOs.   Why doesn't the Fed for Chicago have a record as well as the PMO exhibiting their markings?

And finally - one of the stories offered is from Harry Holmes who claims the STUB was found since one of the 3 copies of the PMO is the receipt retained by the USPS..  The ORIGINAL PMO would have looked kinda like this before the left 2 copies are torn from the book and given to the customer...

Dave - where is the book with the stub proving that PMO was EVER real?  It doesn't exist buddy... for Holmes' story was a complete crock of sh!t as we all now know.

5912320373514_LHOMoneyorderincolorwithsignaturecomparisonsandwhatthestublookslike.thumb.jpg.c057888cfaa41f0be9bff81c0e961717.jpg

So while you may have found something on this faked piece of evidence which does correlate to the real world - connecting it to that real world is not something you ever seem able to do.  You like to pick one and only one thing and hammer it relentlessly.  It's a tactic so you don't have to deal with all the other items of evidence supporting the creation of that item of evidence.

Why too would the HSCA "handwriting experts" be given a photocopy of this critical item when it is the only item the expressly connects Oswald to Hidell to the rifle?

Not only was the PMO offered a XEROX, but one of the experts goes on to explain how copy/paste/rephoto is one of the key ways to create a fraudulent document.

ITEM #29. March 12, 1963. U.S. postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 bearing handwritten fill-ins as follows: Klein's Sporting Goods, A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915. Dallas, Tex. Blue ink, ballpoint pen. Location: Archives. (CE 788; JFK exhibit F-509A and 509B.) Note: Item #29 is acknowledged as a XEROX COPY made from the microfilm copy.

From the HSCA Experts report itself:

Limitations on the examination (71) Five items of evidence were not examined in the original, but were copies. Photocopies have several limitations. They do not reproduce all the fine details in handwriting needed in making an examination and comparison. At best, they do not produce as sharp an image as a properly produced photograph, and they lack tonal gradations, a result of the contrasting process of reproduction. In addition, it is possible to incorporate or insert changes and alterations into copies. A method frequently used is to paste together parts of documents to make one fraudulent document, which is then copied. If the first copy can pass inspection, it will be used; if not, it will be reworked to eliminate all signs of alteration. This amended copy is then recopied for the finished product. This is usually referred to as the "cut and paste" method. (72) Document examiners only render a qualified or conditional opinion when working from copies. They stipulate that they have to examine the original before a definite opinion will be made. (73) Because of problems with the following documents, no definite opinion can be rendered: (74) Item 18, a halftone copy of a photograph of the original document. This is at least a third generation copy and is not suitable for comparison. (A halftone copy consists of very small dots and not continuous lines.) (75) Item 29 was a Xerox copy made from a microfilm copy. Such a second generation copy has the defects of both processes. (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22439-yes-postal-money-orders-do-require-bank-endorsements/?do=findComment&comment=352787)

[John Mytton]

The 10-digit number on the front of the money order does not prove it was cashed and does not prove it was processed through the Federal Reserve System. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I am going to take the liberty of quoting from one of David Josephs' replies to David Von Pein on this issue:

The money order was located in the archives and has a clear chain of custody and as I've previously stated, the easiest and least complicated way to create a transaction was to simply buy a money order and order the rifle through the standard channels because inventing each part of the process is simply absurd.



JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

The money order was located in the archives and has a clear chain of custody and as I've previously stated, the easiest and least complicated way to create a transaction was to simply buy a money order and order the rifle through the standard channels because inventing each part of the process is simply absurd.



JohnM

Great, now all you need to do is link that money order to a specific transaction at Klein's

Can you do that?