JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories

[Michael Carney]

First doctor to work on JFK, the importance of this short video is the location of the head wound

[Michael T. Griffith]

All this back and forth crap is getting old. Check out this website where cops talk about .223 headshots.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5445-223-in-the-head

Basically it says that the .223 enters the head and rarely exits. Typically enters the head and travels a couple inches and explodes. Just like what happened to JFK, traveled a couple of inches and exploded.

You have made a very good case that the head-shot bullet behaved like a frangible bullet and not anything like an FMJ bullet. Many forensic and ballistics experts have noted this fact, as I document in "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wound."

But, I can tell you that the likes of Organ and Elliott will never, ever, ever admit this fact, no matter how much evidence you show them and no matter how strained and silly their counter-arguments are exposed as being.

An interesting side note is that we now know that during the autopsy, the autopsy doctors briefly discussed the fact that the bullet that struck the head did not behave like an FMJ bullet. This observation probably came from Finck, who had considerable experience with gunshot wounds.

And, you probably know from reading Mortal Error that Dr. Russell Fisher of the Clark Panel told Howard Donahue that the Clark Panel members believed that the back-of-head fragment was a ricochet fragment. I spoke and corresponded with Donahue a couple of times a few years after his book came out, and I could tell right away that he would never lie about something like this. Everyone who knew Donahue could discern that he was a down-to-earth, straight-shooter type of person.

[Joe Elliott]

You have made a very good case that the head-shot bullet behaved like a frangible bullet and not anything like an FMJ bullet. Many forensic and ballistics experts have noted this fact, as I document in "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wound."

An interesting side note is that we now know that during the autopsy, the autopsy doctors briefly discussed the fact that the bullet that struck the head did not behave like an FMJ bullet. This observation probably came from Finck, who had considerable experience with gunshot wounds.

WCC/MC FMJ bullets, upon striking bone at near 1900 feet per second, will fragment.

In a sense, FMJ bullets, which strike bone at high speed, will act like non FMJ bullets, which strike soft tissue at high speed. Both will fragment. So, yes, a FMJ can act like a non FMJ bullet, when a FMJ strikes bone at high speed.

Question:

Where is the ballistic expert who says different? And who cites his experiments that show that a WCC/MC bullet, striking bone, like a skull, at high speed, will not fragment?

But, I can tell you that the likes of Organ and Elliott will never, ever, ever admit this fact, no matter how much evidence you show them and no matter how strained and silly their counter-arguments are exposed as being.

Speaking for myself, no I will never admit this “fact” until you provide quality evidence from a true qualified ballistic expert.

[Michael Carney]

Joe

"Question:

Where is the ballistic expert who says different? And who cites his experiments that show that a WCC/MC bullet, striking bone, like a skull, at high speed, will not fragment?"

Read Griffith’s article, it’s full of experts claiming that a FMJ bullet is not likely to fragment and certainly not fragment like the fragments found in JFK’s head.

[Joe Elliott]

Joe

"Question:

Where is the ballistic expert who says different? And who cites his experiments that show that a WCC/MC bullet, striking bone, like a skull, at high speed, will not fragment?"

Read Griffith’s article, it’s full of experts claiming that a FMJ bullet is not likely to fragment and certainly not fragment like the fragments found in JFK’s head.

I’ve seen his articles. He does not give the name of a true ballistic expert. Someone who:

•   Conducts systematic experiments with bones embedded in ballistic gel to see the effects of bone on bullets under varying conditions, with different types of bullets.
•   Is trusted to give testimony in a court of law, to match bullets recovered to weapons fired, and on other ballistic questions.

He lists true experts, like doctors. But not ballistic experts. A medical doctor should not say things like “I don’t see how CE-399 could have come out with so little damage.” Not any kind of expert will do, like a medical doctor or a rocket scientist, or a good rifleman who is also a gunsmith. It has to be a true ballistic expert to have an opinion that counts. And, after 56 years, the CTers are still searching for such an expert, but found none. So, they resort to palming off the opinions of medical doctors. On medical questions, yes, their opinion carries weight. But on what a bullet should look like, it doesn’t.

Can you point me to such an article by Mr. Griffith and provide the name of a true ballistic expert who he cites?

[Michael Carney]

The problem with the argument is you can't explain the fragmentation in JFK's head with a FMJ bullet, only explanation is a frangible round.

[Michael Carney]

Sorry Joe,

I thought I included it. http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/forensic.htm
There are a number of experts in the article.

[Joe Elliott]

Sorry Joe,

I thought I included it. http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/forensic.htm
There are a number of experts in the article.

Yes. I assume they are true ballistic experts. But they aren’t discussing the Western Cartridge Company Mannlicher Carcano bullets. I never claimed every type of bullet that has even been made will fragment when striking a skull at 1900 feet per second. Only that WCC/MC bullets will. Because that is what real world tests show.

Basically, we have non-ballistic experts, like medical doctors, who claim that WCC/MC bullets would not behave this way. And we have true ballistic experts who claim that many types of bullets, do not behave this way. But we don’t have any true ballistic experts who claim a WCC/MC would not behave this way. Either as the WCC/MC bullet that wounded Kennedy and Connally. Or the WCC/MC bullet that struck Kennedy in the head and a fragment of which slightly wounded Tague. After 56 years, the CTers are still searching without any success.

To keep from repeating myself, see my response at:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2690.0.html