JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories

[Michael Carney]

No they are not discussing the Western Cartridge Company rounds specifically, they are discussing FMJ bullets in which I am sure some were WCC cartridges. There are specifications for a 6.5mm FMJ and I am sure they would all perform similarly. And the other point is the fragmentation; even if a FMJ came apart you would not have the “spray” of tiny fragments, you would have large fragments.

What point are you trying to prove, that Oswald was the lone gunman? That has gone by the wayside.

[Joe Elliott]

No they are not discussing the Western Cartridge Company rounds specifically, they are discussing FMJ bullets in which I am sure some were WCC cartridges. There are specifications for a 6.5mm FMJ and I am sure they would all perform similarly. And the other point is the fragmentation; even if a FMJ came apart you would not have the “spray” of tiny fragments, you would have large fragments.

“No they are not discussing the Western Cartridge Company rounds specifically, . . .”. End of ballgame.

Not all FMJ bullets are identical or have identical characteristics. They have different compounds that go into making the jacket. Copper, copper alloys, even steel. The thickness of the jacket varies. Different types of FMJ bullets will behave differently. All FMJ bullets will fragment if they strike bone with enough velocity. For many, but not all types of FMJ, this will never happen in the real world, because these velocities are greater than the muzzle velocity of the rifle that fires them. But this is not true of the WCC/MC bullet.

So, it doesn’t matter what some or even many FMJ bullets do when they strike a skull at 1900 feet per second. All that matters is what a WCC/MC bullet will do. And it will fragment.

If WCC/MC bullets could not behave the way it did when it wounded Kennedy and Connally, or could not behave the way when it struck Kennedy in the head, CTers would have no problem finding bonafide ballistic experts who would say so.

How would one predict, ahead of time, if WCC/MC bullets were used to shoot Kennedy and Connally, how CTers would argue otherwise? It’s easy. They would either:

•   Use experts, but non-ballistic experts, to argue that WCC/MC bullets could not do this.
Or:
•   Use real ballistic experts who argue that bullets different from the WCC/MC bullets could not behave as the bullets did at Dealey Plaza, such as fragmenting.

This is something that one could predict ahead of time. And this is precisely the scheme that Mr. Griffith has used.


Let me make an analogy. The early 1960’s Chevrolet Corvair was a dangerous car to operate. Now I’m certain one could find experts who would state that American made cars are generally safe to operate. While this may be true, that doesn’t mean it was true of the Chevrolet Corvair. Using these statements about American cars in general to “prove” that the Chevrolet Corvair was safe would be a logical fallacy.

What point are you trying to prove, that Oswald was the lone gunman? That has gone by the wayside.

What is my point? To point out that Mr. Griffith trying to give the impression that the true ballistic experts agree with him. They don’t. They are either the wrong type of experts talking about WCC/MC bullets, or the right type of experts talking about non WCC/MC bullets.

[Michael Carney]

So if the WCC/MC regularly fragments, what size are the fragments, surely you have specs on that. And how do they compare to size of the fragments found in JFK’s skull? Not the one or two pieces found in the back of his head or taped to an x-ray but the massive of “fragment spray” found on the interior of the right side of his skull.

[Michael T. Griffith]

“No they are not discussing the Western Cartridge Company rounds specifically, . . .”. End of ballgame.

I hate to be blunt, but that is just an idiotic argument. It shows you have no clue what you're talking about. You are just making up nonsense on the fly.

FYI, even today, most FMJ bullets are copper-jacketed. As I told you in my thread on the evidence that JFK's head was hit by frangible ammo, just go to any major website that sells ammo, and you'll see that most FMJ bullets are copper-jacketed.

And let me remind you again, since you keep ignoring this point, that not one of the WCC/MC FMJ bullets fired into skulls in Olivier's WC ballistics tests fragmented into dozens of fragments inside and/or outside the skull, much less magically deposited two fragments on the outer table of the skull. Not a single one of them did this. Not one.

Let me also remind you that you claim that WCC/MC FMJ bullet CE 399 penetrated seven layers of skin, smashed 4 inches of rib, and shattered a radius bone, and yet not only did not fragment but, incredibly, emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with all but 3-4 grains of its substance.

I know you don't know anything about ammo or ballistics, but the fact that CE 399's lands and grooves are intact is incredible. This suggests it was fired into cloth, or some other soft material, and then retrieved.

No FMJ bullet down here on Earth is going to smash 4 inches of rib and shatter a radius bone and still have its lands and grooves intact. But that's your fairy tale. Yet, then you turn around and claim that, "Oh, yeah, a WCC/MC FMJ bullet hit Kennedy in the head, shattered into over 40 fragments, left two fragments on the outer table of the skull, and even ejected its nose and tail into the limousine!"

Even on something as well established as the fact that FMJ ammo usually does not fragment in skull shots and that on those few occasions when FMJ bullets do fragment in skull shots, they only break into a few pieces and never into dozens of tiny fragments--even on this well-established fact you can't bring yourself to be objective and just acknowledge the fact.

[Michael Carney]

So I think I will sum up my stand and then move onto a new topic like “Who shot JFK and why?”

There were several shooters, 6th floor of the TSBD, the grassy knoll, accidental shot from Hickey, possibly from the Dal Tex building, and possibly another from a sewer.  The sewer I don’t buy it but it’s out there.

The first shot hit’s the pavement and ricocheted fragments hit JFK in the back of the head and he says “I’m hit”. Next shot from behind hit’s JFK in the back and exits his throat and possibly hits Connolly in the back and out his chest, through his wrist and into his leg. Or Connolly got hit by a third bullet possibly from the Dal Tex building. His movements after JFK got hit, and his testimony states he turned to his right to see if he could see JKF when he was holding his throat, didn’t and started to turn to his left and then he said he was hit.  The next shot or shots were frangible rounds, one from the back and one from the front. One fired by Hickey and the other by the shooter on the grassy knoll. So now the lone shooter theory is out the window. Way too many witnesses said a shot came from the grassy knoll; gunshot sound and some smoke. And you have all the Hickey witnesses saying he was holding a gun and some thought he had fired it. Throw in the gun smoke smelled by so many witnesses in the motorcade, the smokes alignment with the motorcade, and the wind also being in alignment with the motorcade say’s that a gun was fired in the motorcade.

The frangible round from the back explains JFK’s head movement as witnessed by all the melon tests, (btw I weighed a large round watermelon the other day and it weighed 14 lbs.) The bullet passes through the head some distance and then explodes. It looks like it traveled 2-3 inches and then exploded blowing JFK’s brain mater forward and his head back like in the watermelon tests.

That's my story and I am sticking to it...........

Does anyone know if there is a thread “Who shot JFK and why?”

[Joe Elliott]

I hate to be blunt, but that is just an idiotic argument. It shows you have no clue what you're talking about. You are just making up nonsense on the fly.

FYI, even today, most FMJ bullets are copper-jacketed. As I told you in my thread on the evidence that JFK's head was hit by frangible ammo, just go to any major website that sells ammo, and you'll see that most FMJ bullets are copper-jacketed.

And let me remind you again, since you keep ignoring this point, that not one of the WCC/MC FMJ bullets fired into skulls in Olivier's WC ballistics tests fragmented into dozens of fragments inside and/or outside the skull, much less magically deposited two fragments on the outer table of the skull. Not a single one of them did this. Not one.

Let me also remind you that you claim that WCC/MC FMJ bullet CE 399 penetrated seven layers of skin, smashed 4 inches of rib, and shattered a radius bone, and yet not only did not fragment but, incredibly, emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with all but 3-4 grains of its substance.

I know you don't know anything about ammo or ballistics, but the fact that CE 399's lands and grooves are intact is incredible. This suggests it was fired into cloth, or some other soft material, and then retrieved.

No FMJ bullet down here on Earth is going to smash 4 inches of rib and shatter a radius bone and still have its lands and grooves intact. But that's your fairy tale. Yet, then you turn around and claim that, "Oh, yeah, a WCC/MC FMJ bullet hit Kennedy in the head, shattered into over 40 fragments, left two fragments on the outer table of the skull, and even ejected its nose and tail into the limousine!"

Even on something as well established as the fact that FMJ ammo usually does not fragment in skull shots and that on those few occasions when FMJ bullets do fragment in skull shots, they only break into a few pieces and never into dozens of tiny fragments--even on this well-established fact you can't bring yourself to be objective and just acknowledge the fact.

Where is the true ballistic expert who agrees with any of your points?

A true ballistic expert. A professional. Who participates in systematic scientific experiments? Whose testimony has been accepted in a court of law, on ballistic questions, like “Was this the weapon that fired this bullet?”.

And who is talking about WCC/MC bullets specifically, not FMJ bullets in general. My impression is that most FMJ bullets have a minimum velocity below which that bullet will not deform that is higher than the muzzle velocity. So those bullets will not deform when striking bone under real world circumstances. But this is not true of the WCC/MC bullet which deforms at or above 1700 feet per second and has a muzzle velocity of 2150 feet per second. So, it is possible for bone to deform and fragment WCC/MC bullets. As seen with the “Skull Shot # 8170”. All of this can be seen in Larry Sturdivan’s “The JFK Myths”, in Table II on page 118 and in Figure 20 on page 122.

How do you explain the fragmenting of “Skull Shot # 8170”, if it is impossible for WCC/MC bullet to be fragmented by a skull?

We are all still waiting.

[Joe Elliott]

And let me remind you again, since you keep ignoring this point, that not one of the WCC/MC FMJ bullets fired into skulls in Olivier's WC ballistics tests fragmented into dozens of fragments inside and/or outside the skull, much less magically deposited two fragments on the outer table of the skull. Not a single one of them did this. Not one.

I understand that Dr. Olivier was using, not the heads of recently dead humans, nor the heads of recently head animals, but bare skulls. Is this correct? Dried out skulls? Could this cause the difference in the Dr. Olivier test and the test that Larry Sturdivan was talking about.

On the question of “Can WCC/MC bullets fragment by hitting a skull?”, if sometimes they do and sometimes, they don’t, what is the answer? The answer is YES. A one-time test, where the bullet fragment means that yes, it can fragment. Which means the CT arguments that a WCC/MC could not have been the bullet that struck the head is false. It is a lie.

And this is doubly true if, yes, they sometimes fail to fragment, particularly when they strike a dried-out skull. But not when they strike the skull of a human or an animal that died just recently.

I would prefer if we only cite any experiments that are conducted on skulls of animals that recently died, not on dried out skulls. I mean, after all, if I took two old skeletons, build a “ballistic gel” body around both, and recreated CE 399 by shooting through both bodies, would this really be a fair test? Could it be that a real body with fresh bones would damage a WCC/MC bullet more than dried out bones from a skeleton would? Something like this would only be valid if conducted with animal bones that died as recently as possible, like within 24 hours.

[Michael Carney]

Jerry, I cannot make out anything in the Bronson film, what am I supposed to see?