JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories

[Michael T. Griffith]

Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on July 01, 2020, 07:56:09 PM
You don't even know what you're talking about. "Deceberate rigidity" is the same thing as "deceberate reaction." They are two terms for the same action, and Sturdivan used both as synonyms for "neuromuscular reaction."

VS

Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on July 01, 2020, 01:23:39 PM
So you are still trying to salvage your misreading of Sturdivan’s testimony? Sad. I never said that Sturdivan used "decerebrate rigidity" as a synonym for "neuromuscular reaction." Go back and read my reply.

Your dishonest parsing of my words is downright silly. There is no conflict between those two statements. In the 1:23 reply I simply observed that I had not said that Sturdivan used "decerebrate rigidity" as a synonym for "neuromuscular reaction." In the reply in question, I did not say anything about how he used the term "decerebrate rigidity." In the 1:23 reply, I was not denying that he did so but was simply pointing out that I had not said that he did. I guess to anticipate your dishonest parsing of my words, I should have added that I would not have been wrong to have said that he used the terms synonymously, but my point was to simply observe that Joe Elliott attributed a statement to me that I did not make.

I notice you didn't bother to quote the part of my reply where I explained that not all neuromuscular reactions are decerebrate reactions and that Sturdivan said that the goat's neuromuscular reaction was a decerebrate reaction.

Again, Sturdivan was using "decerebrate reaction" synonymously with "neuromuscular reaction", but you err in assuming that he was using "decerebrate rigidity" synonymously with "neuromuscular reaction". He used "terminus of the decerebrate reaction" synonymously with "decerebrate rigidity".  "Decerebrate rigidity" is NOT the same thing as "decerebrate reaction". It is the end point of a "decerebrate reaction".

Wrong. You didn't even bother to Google this, did you? Or perhaps you did but did not grasp what you were reading. Let us see what a quick Google search turns up about "decerebrate rigidity" and "decerebrate response." Sturdivan used the term "decerebrate reaction" but the standard term is "decerebrate response." Two other common synonyms are "decerebrate posturing" and "extensor posturing." Let us take a look:

"Decerebrate posturing is also called decerebrate response, decerebrate rigidity, or extensor posturing. It describes the involuntary extension of the upper extremities in response to external stimuli." (http://web.as.uky.edu/biology/faculty/cooper/bio535/chapter%2016-liz.pdf)

"In decerebrate posturing (also called decerebrate response or rigidity), the abnormal posturing is characterized by the arms extending at the sides." (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547687/)

"Decerebrate posturing is also called decerebrate response, decerebrate rigidity, or extensor posturing." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abnormal_posturing)

"Also known as extensor posturing, decerebrate rigidity is a term that describes the involuntary extensor positioning of the arms, flexion of the hands, with knee extension and plantar flexion when stimulated as a result of a midbrain lesion." (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547687/)

And since you have just waved aside Dr. Thomas's demolition of Sturdivan's defense of the neuromuscular-reaction theory, I guess there's no point in trying to get you to actually address Dr. Thomas's points.

[Joe Elliott]

Wow, really? So that's your answer: Dr. Thomas doesn't know what he's talking about regarding human anatomy and neuro reactions? Wow, uh-huh.  Never mind that neuroscientists Joe Riley and Robert Zacharko have likewise said that the neuromuscular-reaction theory is nonsense, right? And never mind that you guys can't cite a single neuroscientist who is willing to say that JFK's backward movement could have been caused by a neurospasm, right?

Neuroscientist? Didn't Zacharko teach psychology at Carleton? Maybe I should ask Jordan Peterson what he thinks.

When am I going to learn not to trust what a CTer tells me?

Dr. Robert Zacharko – Neuroscientist ? ! ? ! ?

What information do I find about Dr. Zacharko on the internet:

Robert M. Zacharko, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology
Department of Psychology
Carleton University
Ottawa, Ontario Canada

By the way, Dr. Zacharko passed away at the age of 63 on January 4, 2016.

The website for the Carleton Institute of Neuroscience says:

http://www3.carleton.ca/calendars/archives/grad/9798/SCIENCE/Institute_of_Neuroscience.htm

Neuroscience is an emerging academic discipline that includes physiological, anatomical, biochemical, and behavioural studies of the nervous system

It would appear that Dr. Zacharko concentrated on behavioural studies, hence his working for the university as a Professor of Psychology.

It doesn’t sound like he was specializing in studying the nitty ditty details of what can cause neurons to fire.

But I suppose it doesn’t matter. Nervous System Researchers, Psychologists, doctors who specialize in treating nasal infections, there all head doctors, right? That makes them all neuroscientists.

And Dr. Donald Thomas? Well, insects have heads. So, I guess that makes him a neuroscientist as well.


Thank you Tim. Great find.

[Tim Nickerson]

Your dishonest parsing of my words is downright silly. There is no conflict between those two statements. In the 1:23 reply I simply observed that I had not said that Sturdivan used "decerebrate rigidity" as a synonym for "neuromuscular reaction." In the reply in question, I did not say anything about how he used the term "decerebrate rigidity." In the 1:23 reply, I was not denying that he did so but was simply pointing out that I had not said that he did. I guess to anticipate your dishonest parsing of my words, I should have added that I would not have been wrong to have said that he used the terms synonymously, but my point was to simply observe that Joe Elliott attributed a statement to me that I did not make.

I notice you didn't bother to quote the part of my reply where I explained that not all neuromuscular reactions are decerebrate reactions and that Sturdivan said that the goat's neuromuscular reaction was a decerebrate reaction.

I quoted two statements from you word for word. How is that me dishonestly parsing your words? Contrary to your understanding, the two statements are in conflict with one another.

You don't even know what you're talking about. "Deceberate rigidity" is the same thing as "deceberate reaction." They are two terms for the same action, and Sturdivan used both as synonyms for "neuromuscular reaction."

VS

So you are still trying to salvage your misreading of Sturdivan’s testimony? Sad. I never said that Sturdivan used "decerebrate rigidity" as a synonym for "neuromuscular reaction." Go back and read my reply.

[Tim Nickerson]

Wrong. You didn't even bother to Google this, did you? Or perhaps you did but did not grasp what you were reading. Let us see what a quick Google search turns up about "decerebrate rigidity" and "decerebrate response." Sturdivan used the term "decerebrate reaction" but the standard term is "decerebrate response." Two other common synonyms are "decerebrate posturing" and "extensor posturing." Let us take a look:

"Decerebrate posturing is also called decerebrate response, decerebrate rigidity, or extensor posturing. It describes the involuntary extension of the upper extremities in response to external stimuli." (http://web.as.uky.edu/biology/faculty/cooper/bio535/chapter%2016-liz.pdf)

"In decerebrate posturing (also called decerebrate response or rigidity), the abnormal posturing is characterized by the arms extending at the sides." (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547687/)

"Decerebrate posturing is also called decerebrate response, decerebrate rigidity, or extensor posturing." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abnormal_posturing)

"Also known as extensor posturing, decerebrate rigidity is a term that describes the involuntary extensor positioning of the arms, flexion of the hands, with knee extension and plantar flexion when stimulated as a result of a midbrain lesion." (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547687/)

And since you have just waved aside Dr. Thomas's demolition of Sturdivan's defense of the neuromuscular-reaction theory, I guess there's no point in trying to get you to actually address Dr. Thomas's points.

I don't need to google anything on this, Sturdivan used "terminus of the decerebrate reaction" synonymously with "decerebrate rigidity". You err in assuming that he was using "decerebrate rigidity" synonymously with "neuromuscular reaction". I'm sorry, but you do.

[Tim Nickerson]

When am I going to learn not to trust what a CTer tells me?

Dr. Robert Zacharko – Neuroscientist ? ! ? ! ?

What information do I find about Dr. Zacharko on the internet:

Robert M. Zacharko, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology
Department of Psychology
Carleton University
Ottawa, Ontario Canada

By the way, Dr. Zacharko passed away at the age of 63 on January 4, 2016.

The website for the Carleton Institute of Neuroscience says:

http://www3.carleton.ca/calendars/archives/grad/9798/SCIENCE/Institute_of_Neuroscience.htm

It would appear that Dr. Zacharko concentrated on behavioural studies, hence his working for the university as a Professor of Psychology.

It doesn’t sound like he was specializing in studying the nitty ditty details of what can cause neurons to fire.

But I suppose it doesn’t matter. Nervous System Researchers, Psychologists, doctors who specialize in treating nasal infections, there all head doctors, right? That makes them all neuroscientists.

And Dr. Donald Thomas? Well, insects have heads. So, I guess that makes him a neuroscientist as well.


Thank you Tim. Great find.

I think that there is, or was, another Dr. Robert Zacharko at the same University. Probably Jr's father. Same field, I believe.

[Joe Elliott]

I think that there is, or was, another Dr. Robert Zacharko at the same University. Probably Jr's father. Same field, I believe.

Tim

Robert M. Zacharko was born on April 13, 1952, to Nicolas and Olga Zacharko. So, the “Neuroscientist” was not his father. However, he had a son named Bobby (Robert). Michael Griffith communicated with Dr. Robert Zacharko on February 8, 1999, when Dr. Zacharko would have been 46 years old. I doubt that his son, with a father only 46 years old, would have been the neuroscientist who responded to Mr. Griffith’s email. I think the 46-year-old Psychology professor was the so called “Neuroscientist” who responded to Mr. Griffith’s enquires, and who Mr. Griffith always referred to as a Neuroscientist.

As far as I know, the son, Bobby, has never been a professor at Carleton University. I did not find any information about the son, except his name.

So that was the scientist who said the neuromuscular spasm was impossible. A Psychology professor. I think the authority sounds more impressive when referred to as a “Neuroscientist”, don’t you?

Joe

[Tim Nickerson]

Tim

Robert M. Zacharko was born on April 13, 1952, to Nicolas and Olga Zacharko. So, the “Neuroscientist” was not his father. However, he had a son named Bobby (Robert). Michael Griffith communicated with Dr. Robert Zacharko on February 8, 1999, when Dr. Zacharko would have been 46 years old. I doubt that his son, with a father only 46 years old, would have been the neuroscientist who responded to Mr. Griffith’s email. I think the 46-year-old Psychology professor was the so called “Neuroscientist” who responded to Mr. Griffith’s enquires, and who Mr. Griffith always referred to as a Neuroscientist.

As far as I know, the son, Bobby, has never been a professor at Carleton University. I did not find any information about the son, except his name.

So that was the scientist who said the neuromuscular spasm was impossible. A Psychology professor. I think the authority sounds more impressive when referred to as a “Neuroscientist”, don’t you?

Joe

LOL! A perfect example of how someone can easily be so wrong. Just like Carl Day was in April of 1964.  When I did DDG search for Dr. Robert M. Zacharko, I had two of them come up and they both had been tenured at Carleton. I read right away that one of them had died at 63 years of age. The other one was showing to be 82. It turns out that the 82 was the number of Robert M. Zacharko's research works. 

[Joe Elliott]

LOL! A perfect example of how someone can easily be so wrong. Just like Carl Day was in April of 1964.  When I did DDG search for Dr. Robert M. Zacharko, I had two of them come up and they both had been tenured at Carleton. I read right away that one of them had died at 63 years of age. The other one was showing to be 82. It turns out that the 82 was the number of Robert M. Zacharko's research works. 

Yes. I was puzzled about how a neuroscientist, or any scientist, could say the neuromuscular spasm couldn’t happen. With the proper scientific attitude, when asked “Could a neuromuscular spasm happen in a human”, he would in turn ask “What do films say”. When the answer was “We don’t have any such films and cannot obtain any”, the next question the scientist would ask was “What do films of animals show”. If the such films showed no reaction, he might say a neuromuscular spasm was unlikely, or might still withhold judgement. But if the films do show that animals have a neuromuscular spasm, a true scientist would either say “A neuromuscular spasm would likely occur in humans as well”, or perhaps “I still prefer to withhold judgement”, but certainly not “A neuromuscular spasm could never take place in a human, only in non-human animals”. There would be no basis for such an opinion.

However, a Psychology professor might come away with a different opinion. After looking at the film, I sense a certain frustration in the goat. It was as if, no matter how hard he tried, he was never able to meet his parents expectations. This built in frustration could release itself violently, if shot in the head. However, JFK showed no such signs of similar feelings toward his parents. I think Dr. Zacharko must have come to similar conclusions.