JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories

[Joe Elliott]

Joe

"Question:

Where is the ballistic expert who says different? And who cites his experiments that show that a WCC/MC bullet, striking bone, like a skull, at high speed, will not fragment?"

Read Griffith’s article, it’s full of experts claiming that a FMJ bullet is not likely to fragment and certainly not fragment like the fragments found in JFK’s head.

I’ve seen his articles. He does not give the name of a true ballistic expert. Someone who:

•   Conducts systematic experiments with bones embedded in ballistic gel to see the effects of bone on bullets under varying conditions, with different types of bullets.
•   Is trusted to give testimony in a court of law, to match bullets recovered to weapons fired, and on other ballistic questions.

He lists true experts, like doctors. But not ballistic experts. A medical doctor should not say things like “I don’t see how CE-399 could have come out with so little damage.” Not any kind of expert will do, like a medical doctor or a rocket scientist, or a good rifleman who is also a gunsmith. It has to be a true ballistic expert to have an opinion that counts. And, after 56 years, the CTers are still searching for such an expert, but found none. So, they resort to palming off the opinions of medical doctors. On medical questions, yes, their opinion carries weight. But on what a bullet should look like, it doesn’t.

Can you point me to such an article by Mr. Griffith and provide the name of a true ballistic expert who he cites?

[Michael Carney]

The problem with the argument is you can't explain the fragmentation in JFK's head with a FMJ bullet, only explanation is a frangible round.

[Michael Carney]

Sorry Joe,

I thought I included it. http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/forensic.htm
There are a number of experts in the article.

[Joe Elliott]

Sorry Joe,

I thought I included it. http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/forensic.htm
There are a number of experts in the article.

Yes. I assume they are true ballistic experts. But they aren’t discussing the Western Cartridge Company Mannlicher Carcano bullets. I never claimed every type of bullet that has even been made will fragment when striking a skull at 1900 feet per second. Only that WCC/MC bullets will. Because that is what real world tests show.

Basically, we have non-ballistic experts, like medical doctors, who claim that WCC/MC bullets would not behave this way. And we have true ballistic experts who claim that many types of bullets, do not behave this way. But we don’t have any true ballistic experts who claim a WCC/MC would not behave this way. Either as the WCC/MC bullet that wounded Kennedy and Connally. Or the WCC/MC bullet that struck Kennedy in the head and a fragment of which slightly wounded Tague. After 56 years, the CTers are still searching without any success.

To keep from repeating myself, see my response at:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2690.0.html

[Michael Carney]

No they are not discussing the Western Cartridge Company rounds specifically, they are discussing FMJ bullets in which I am sure some were WCC cartridges. There are specifications for a 6.5mm FMJ and I am sure they would all perform similarly. And the other point is the fragmentation; even if a FMJ came apart you would not have the “spray” of tiny fragments, you would have large fragments.

What point are you trying to prove, that Oswald was the lone gunman? That has gone by the wayside.

[Joe Elliott]

No they are not discussing the Western Cartridge Company rounds specifically, they are discussing FMJ bullets in which I am sure some were WCC cartridges. There are specifications for a 6.5mm FMJ and I am sure they would all perform similarly. And the other point is the fragmentation; even if a FMJ came apart you would not have the “spray” of tiny fragments, you would have large fragments.

“No they are not discussing the Western Cartridge Company rounds specifically, . . .”. End of ballgame.

Not all FMJ bullets are identical or have identical characteristics. They have different compounds that go into making the jacket. Copper, copper alloys, even steel. The thickness of the jacket varies. Different types of FMJ bullets will behave differently. All FMJ bullets will fragment if they strike bone with enough velocity. For many, but not all types of FMJ, this will never happen in the real world, because these velocities are greater than the muzzle velocity of the rifle that fires them. But this is not true of the WCC/MC bullet.

So, it doesn’t matter what some or even many FMJ bullets do when they strike a skull at 1900 feet per second. All that matters is what a WCC/MC bullet will do. And it will fragment.

If WCC/MC bullets could not behave the way it did when it wounded Kennedy and Connally, or could not behave the way when it struck Kennedy in the head, CTers would have no problem finding bonafide ballistic experts who would say so.

How would one predict, ahead of time, if WCC/MC bullets were used to shoot Kennedy and Connally, how CTers would argue otherwise? It’s easy. They would either:

•   Use experts, but non-ballistic experts, to argue that WCC/MC bullets could not do this.
Or:
•   Use real ballistic experts who argue that bullets different from the WCC/MC bullets could not behave as the bullets did at Dealey Plaza, such as fragmenting.

This is something that one could predict ahead of time. And this is precisely the scheme that Mr. Griffith has used.


Let me make an analogy. The early 1960’s Chevrolet Corvair was a dangerous car to operate. Now I’m certain one could find experts who would state that American made cars are generally safe to operate. While this may be true, that doesn’t mean it was true of the Chevrolet Corvair. Using these statements about American cars in general to “prove” that the Chevrolet Corvair was safe would be a logical fallacy.

What point are you trying to prove, that Oswald was the lone gunman? That has gone by the wayside.

What is my point? To point out that Mr. Griffith trying to give the impression that the true ballistic experts agree with him. They don’t. They are either the wrong type of experts talking about WCC/MC bullets, or the right type of experts talking about non WCC/MC bullets.

[Michael Carney]

So if the WCC/MC regularly fragments, what size are the fragments, surely you have specs on that. And how do they compare to size of the fragments found in JFK’s skull? Not the one or two pieces found in the back of his head or taped to an x-ray but the massive of “fragment spray” found on the interior of the right side of his skull.

[Michael T. Griffith]

“No they are not discussing the Western Cartridge Company rounds specifically, . . .”. End of ballgame.

I hate to be blunt, but that is just an idiotic argument. It shows you have no clue what you're talking about. You are just making up nonsense on the fly.

FYI, even today, most FMJ bullets are copper-jacketed. As I told you in my thread on the evidence that JFK's head was hit by frangible ammo, just go to any major website that sells ammo, and you'll see that most FMJ bullets are copper-jacketed.

And let me remind you again, since you keep ignoring this point, that not one of the WCC/MC FMJ bullets fired into skulls in Olivier's WC ballistics tests fragmented into dozens of fragments inside and/or outside the skull, much less magically deposited two fragments on the outer table of the skull. Not a single one of them did this. Not one.

Let me also remind you that you claim that WCC/MC FMJ bullet CE 399 penetrated seven layers of skin, smashed 4 inches of rib, and shattered a radius bone, and yet not only did not fragment but, incredibly, emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with all but 3-4 grains of its substance.

I know you don't know anything about ammo or ballistics, but the fact that CE 399's lands and grooves are intact is incredible. This suggests it was fired into cloth, or some other soft material, and then retrieved.

No FMJ bullet down here on Earth is going to smash 4 inches of rib and shatter a radius bone and still have its lands and grooves intact. But that's your fairy tale. Yet, then you turn around and claim that, "Oh, yeah, a WCC/MC FMJ bullet hit Kennedy in the head, shattered into over 40 fragments, left two fragments on the outer table of the skull, and even ejected its nose and tail into the limousine!"

Even on something as well established as the fact that FMJ ammo usually does not fragment in skull shots and that on those few occasions when FMJ bullets do fragment in skull shots, they only break into a few pieces and never into dozens of tiny fragments--even on this well-established fact you can't bring yourself to be objective and just acknowledge the fact.