JFK's Head Snap and the Implausible Jet-Effect and Neurospasm Theories

[Michael Carney]

So I think I will sum up my stand and then move onto a new topic like “Who shot JFK and why?”

There were several shooters, 6th floor of the TSBD, the grassy knoll, accidental shot from Hickey, possibly from the Dal Tex building, and possibly another from a sewer.  The sewer I don’t buy it but it’s out there.

The first shot hit’s the pavement and ricocheted fragments hit JFK in the back of the head and he says “I’m hit”. Next shot from behind hit’s JFK in the back and exits his throat and possibly hits Connolly in the back and out his chest, through his wrist and into his leg. Or Connolly got hit by a third bullet possibly from the Dal Tex building. His movements after JFK got hit, and his testimony states he turned to his right to see if he could see JKF when he was holding his throat, didn’t and started to turn to his left and then he said he was hit.  The next shot or shots were frangible rounds, one from the back and one from the front. One fired by Hickey and the other by the shooter on the grassy knoll. So now the lone shooter theory is out the window. Way too many witnesses said a shot came from the grassy knoll; gunshot sound and some smoke. And you have all the Hickey witnesses saying he was holding a gun and some thought he had fired it. Throw in the gun smoke smelled by so many witnesses in the motorcade, the smokes alignment with the motorcade, and the wind also being in alignment with the motorcade say’s that a gun was fired in the motorcade.

The frangible round from the back explains JFK’s head movement as witnessed by all the melon tests, (btw I weighed a large round watermelon the other day and it weighed 14 lbs.) The bullet passes through the head some distance and then explodes. It looks like it traveled 2-3 inches and then exploded blowing JFK’s brain mater forward and his head back like in the watermelon tests.

That's my story and I am sticking to it...........

Does anyone know if there is a thread “Who shot JFK and why?”

[Jerry Organ]

So I think I will sum up my stand and then move onto a new topic like “Who shot JFK and why?”

There were several shooters, 6th floor of the TSBD, the grassy knoll, accidental shot from Hickey, possibly from the Dal Tex building, and possibly another from a sewer.  The sewer I don’t buy it but it’s out there.

The first shot hit’s the pavement and ricocheted fragments hit JFK in the back of the head and he says “I’m hit”. Next shot from behind hit’s JFK in the back and exits his throat and possibly hits Connolly in the back and out his chest, through his wrist and into his leg. Or Connolly got hit by a third bullet possibly from the Dal Tex building. His movements after JFK got hit, and his testimony states he turned to his right to see if he could see JKF when he was holding his throat, didn’t and started to turn to his left and then he said he was hit.  The next shot or shots were frangible rounds, one from the back and one from the front. One fired by Hickey and the other by the shooter on the grassy knoll. So now the lone shooter theory is out the window. Way too many witnesses said a shot came from the grassy knoll; gunshot sound and some smoke. And you have all the Hickey witnesses saying he was holding a gun and some thought he had fired it. Throw in the gun smoke smelled by so many witnesses in the motorcade, the smokes alignment with the motorcade, and the wind also being in alignment with the motorcade say’s that a gun was fired in the motorcade.

The frangible round from the back explains JFK’s head movement as witnessed by all the melon tests, (btw I weighed a large round watermelon the other day and it weighed 14 lbs.) The bullet passes through the head some distance and then explodes. It looks like it traveled 2-3 inches and then exploded blowing JFK’s brain mater forward and his head back like in the watermelon tests.

That's my story and I am sticking to it...........

Does anyone know if there is a thread “Who shot JFK and why?”

This is one of many "non-magic" "simplified" counters to the Single-Bullet Theory. LOL.

"One fired by Hickey". See the Bronson 8mm film of the assassination.

[Joe Elliott]

I hate to be blunt, but that is just an idiotic argument. It shows you have no clue what you're talking about. You are just making up nonsense on the fly.

FYI, even today, most FMJ bullets are copper-jacketed. As I told you in my thread on the evidence that JFK's head was hit by frangible ammo, just go to any major website that sells ammo, and you'll see that most FMJ bullets are copper-jacketed.

And let me remind you again, since you keep ignoring this point, that not one of the WCC/MC FMJ bullets fired into skulls in Olivier's WC ballistics tests fragmented into dozens of fragments inside and/or outside the skull, much less magically deposited two fragments on the outer table of the skull. Not a single one of them did this. Not one.

Let me also remind you that you claim that WCC/MC FMJ bullet CE 399 penetrated seven layers of skin, smashed 4 inches of rib, and shattered a radius bone, and yet not only did not fragment but, incredibly, emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with all but 3-4 grains of its substance.

I know you don't know anything about ammo or ballistics, but the fact that CE 399's lands and grooves are intact is incredible. This suggests it was fired into cloth, or some other soft material, and then retrieved.

No FMJ bullet down here on Earth is going to smash 4 inches of rib and shatter a radius bone and still have its lands and grooves intact. But that's your fairy tale. Yet, then you turn around and claim that, "Oh, yeah, a WCC/MC FMJ bullet hit Kennedy in the head, shattered into over 40 fragments, left two fragments on the outer table of the skull, and even ejected its nose and tail into the limousine!"

Even on something as well established as the fact that FMJ ammo usually does not fragment in skull shots and that on those few occasions when FMJ bullets do fragment in skull shots, they only break into a few pieces and never into dozens of tiny fragments--even on this well-established fact you can't bring yourself to be objective and just acknowledge the fact.

Where is the true ballistic expert who agrees with any of your points?

A true ballistic expert. A professional. Who participates in systematic scientific experiments? Whose testimony has been accepted in a court of law, on ballistic questions, like “Was this the weapon that fired this bullet?”.

And who is talking about WCC/MC bullets specifically, not FMJ bullets in general. My impression is that most FMJ bullets have a minimum velocity below which that bullet will not deform that is higher than the muzzle velocity. So those bullets will not deform when striking bone under real world circumstances. But this is not true of the WCC/MC bullet which deforms at or above 1700 feet per second and has a muzzle velocity of 2150 feet per second. So, it is possible for bone to deform and fragment WCC/MC bullets. As seen with the “Skull Shot # 8170”. All of this can be seen in Larry Sturdivan’s “The JFK Myths”, in Table II on page 118 and in Figure 20 on page 122.

How do you explain the fragmenting of “Skull Shot # 8170”, if it is impossible for WCC/MC bullet to be fragmented by a skull?

We are all still waiting.

[Joe Elliott]

And let me remind you again, since you keep ignoring this point, that not one of the WCC/MC FMJ bullets fired into skulls in Olivier's WC ballistics tests fragmented into dozens of fragments inside and/or outside the skull, much less magically deposited two fragments on the outer table of the skull. Not a single one of them did this. Not one.

I understand that Dr. Olivier was using, not the heads of recently dead humans, nor the heads of recently head animals, but bare skulls. Is this correct? Dried out skulls? Could this cause the difference in the Dr. Olivier test and the test that Larry Sturdivan was talking about.

On the question of “Can WCC/MC bullets fragment by hitting a skull?”, if sometimes they do and sometimes, they don’t, what is the answer? The answer is YES. A one-time test, where the bullet fragment means that yes, it can fragment. Which means the CT arguments that a WCC/MC could not have been the bullet that struck the head is false. It is a lie.

And this is doubly true if, yes, they sometimes fail to fragment, particularly when they strike a dried-out skull. But not when they strike the skull of a human or an animal that died just recently.

I would prefer if we only cite any experiments that are conducted on skulls of animals that recently died, not on dried out skulls. I mean, after all, if I took two old skeletons, build a “ballistic gel” body around both, and recreated CE 399 by shooting through both bodies, would this really be a fair test? Could it be that a real body with fresh bones would damage a WCC/MC bullet more than dried out bones from a skeleton would? Something like this would only be valid if conducted with animal bones that died as recently as possible, like within 24 hours.

[Michael Carney]

Jerry, I cannot make out anything in the Bronson film, what am I supposed to see?

[Michael Carney]

"This is one of many "non-magic" "simplified" counters to the Single-Bullet Theory. LOL."

What so you mean by "simplified counter" to the single-bullet theory?
1. You have many witnesses claiming a bullet was fired from the grassy knoll. Most likely the throat shot.
2. You have a shooter on the sixth floor TSBD.
3. Evidence in JFK's skull that he was hit with a frangible round.
4. Evidence that Hickey fired the fatal shot accidentally.

We don't need a single bullet theory, the only reason it exists is because they wanted to blame it all on Oswald. That's the only way they could pin it all on one person, case closed.

It just dawned that JFK got hit at least 4 times; fragments to the back of the head from the ricochet, once in the back, once in the throat, and once more in the head.

[Jerry Organ]

"This is one of many "non-magic" "simplified" counters to the Single-Bullet Theory. LOL."

What so you mean by "simplified counter" to the single-bullet theory?
1. You have many witnesses claiming a bullet was fired from the grassy knoll. Most likely the throat shot.

Sam Holland originally said the "puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade through the trees." In his testimony, Holland said he ran there first: "Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go."

The "puff of smoke" could be anything. Six months after the events, Holland still wasn't sure: "There was a shot, a report, I don’t know whether it was a shot." By time he met Mark Lane and Josiah Thompson, he was re-enacting a gunman's position behind the fence line.

2. You have a shooter on the sixth floor TSBD.
3. Evidence in JFK's skull that he was hit with a frangible round.
4. Evidence that Hickey fired the fatal shot accidentally.

Just not, IMO, seeing Hickey standing high enough in the Bronson film.

From Dale Myers site. Arrow points to agent in back seat. IMO, Hickey is probably the more elevated of the two agents.

From the Pat Speer site.

From the Pat Speer site.

The heads of the two agents in the back seat don't go higher than the heads of the agents on the running boards. Neither agent in the back seat is elevated enough to fire a shot over the Queen Mary windshield. Pat Speer flipped the line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book and superimposed it over a Bronson film frame.

We don't need a single bullet theory, the only reason it exists is because they wanted to blame it all on Oswald. That's the only way they could pin it all on one person, case closed.

The Warren Report offers their actual rationale.

It just dawned that JFK got hit at least 4 times; fragments to the back of the head from the ricochet, once in the back, once in the throat, and once more in the head.

So they wanted it to be known an assassination team took out Kennedy, albeit Keystone-Cops-esque?

Or... if the conspirators wanted a lone-assassin subterfuge, they picked a lousy way of accomplishing it.

[Michael Carney]

“Sam Holland originally said the "puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade through the trees." In his testimony, Holland said he ran there first: "Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go."

The "puff of smoke" could be anything. Six months after the events, Holland still wasn't sure: "There was a shot, a report, I don’t know whether it was a shot." By time he met Mark Lane and Josiah Thompson, he was re-enacting a gunman's position behind the fence line.”
Sam Holland is one out what, twenty witnesses, that said the shot came from the grassy knoll, twenty to one aren’t good odds.

“The heads of the two agents in the back seat don't go higher than the heads of the agents on the running boards. Neither agent in the back seat is elevated enough to fire a shot over the Queen Mary windshield. Pat Speer flipped the line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book and superimposed it over a Bronson film frame.”

Witnesses to Hickey holding and possibly firing a “rifle”:
•   Dallas Mayor, Earl Cabel. see’s one Secret Service agent standup with a sub-machine gun.
•   Senator Yarbrough also saw a rifle.
•   Agent Winston rides in the front of JFK in the lead car. He noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow up car, “I first thought that he had fired it”.
•   Sam Holland, a witness, is standing on top of the underpass as the motorcade is going under him. “After the first shot, the Secret Service agent raised up with a machine gun and dropped back down into the seat. WC Vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 480
•   Roy Kellerman testified there was an AR15 in the motorcade.
•   Hugh Betner saw one Secret Service agent pull out a gun, he was standing watching the motorcade. vol XXIV, ex 2003, pg 200
•   A police officer on the over pass as the motorcade passing under saw an agent swinging around the gun.
•   Margaret Chisolm WC vol XIX, ex 5323, pg 472 saw agents stand up and sit back down.
•   Jean Hill – Saw JFK grab his chest and fall forward and she thinks she saw men in plain clothes shooting back. WC Vol XXIV, Ex 2003, pg 212
•   Ralph Yarborough saw a SS Agent pull out a rifle. WC Vol VII, pg 439

“The Warren Report offers their actual rationale.”

We know what the purpose of the Warren Report was, hide the fact that it was a conspiracy.


"So they wanted it to be known an assassination team took out Kennedy, albeit Keystone-Cops-esque? Or... if the conspirators wanted a lone-assassin subterfuge, they picked a lousy way of accomplishing it."

No, the only shot that missed was the first one, all the others hit a target. I believe they did want it to look like a lone gunman but they had the shooter on the grassy knoll as insurance, he was not getting out of there alive.