Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

[Alan Ford]

Mr. Ball: And you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the President was shot?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL: What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ: Well, he told me about the same story about this lunch.
Mr. BALL: He mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the President was shot.
Mr. BALL: With whom?
Mr. FRITZ: With someone called Junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name.
Mr. BALL: Did he tell you what he was eating?
Mr. FRITZ: He told me, I believe, that he had, I am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, I had forgotten about the fruit until I looked at this report.
Mr. BALL: Did he say that was in the package he had brought from home?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; there was one reason I asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones, I am sure you heard of that, and I wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and I also talked with the Paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese.
Mr. BALL: But he said he had had lunch with Junior?
Mr. FRITZ: Yes, sir; and with someone else.
Mr. BALL. Did you find out that there was an employee named Junior, a man that was nicknamed Junior at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. FRITZ: Probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. I didn't do it myself probably.

Mr Fritz let the truth slip a little earlier in his testimony:

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."

(Note BTW that 'leaving the building' here means departing the Depository building, i.e. going down into the street and away. Mr Oswald didn't leave the building until he left the front steps to go home------------he saw the 'excitement' from the front steps and after that decided to leave the building.)

Thanks to the earthquake revelation of the Agent Hosty draft interrogation report 11/22/63, we can piece together exactly what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz:

1. I broke for lunch and came downstairs
2. I bought a Coca Cola from the machine in the second-floor lunchroom
3. I came back down to the first floor and started eating my lunch
4. While down there I noticed Junior and (Norman) come in
5. I then went outside to watch the P. Parade (I was standing beside Mr Shelley when it all happened)
6. Just after that a police officer came running up into the front entrance etc

In the first official report of that first interrogation (by Agents Hosty & Bookhout), these claims were either fudged or distorted. In the second report on that same interrogation (by Agent Bookhout ALONE), the timeline and facts were completely distorted into the following garbage...............

1. I encountered a police officer and Mr Truly in the second-floor lunchroom (---> post-assassination)
2. I came down to the first floor and ate lunch (---> post-assassination)
3. I then went outside where I got chatting with Mr Shelley (---> post-assassination)

 

[Alan Ford]

You sure know how to split a hair. Baker's position as far as he got is "B-2".

    "Mr. BELIN - As you called you say you remembered moving forward
          and. meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with
          the arrow with number 24 on it on Exhibit 497, is that right?
     Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
     Mr. BELIN - After you got there, did you move until the man came up
          to you?
     Mr. BAKER - No, sir.

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9," 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."
(Officer Marrion Baker, affidavit 11/22/63 - during the taking of which Mr Oswald was brought into office in front of Officer Baker)

The man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up was not Mr Oswald. Officer Baker had already met him down at the front entrance (see first press statements from DPD 11/22/63!)

 

[Bill Chapman]

Mr Fritz let the truth slip a little earlier in his testimony:

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."

(Note BTW that 'leaving the building' here means departing the Depository building, i.e. going down into the street and away. Mr Oswald didn't leave the building until he left the front steps to go home------------he saw the 'excitement' from the front steps and after that decided to leave the building.)

Thanks to the earthquake revelation of the Agent Hosty draft interrogation report 11/22/63, we can piece together exactly what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz:

1. I broke for lunch and came downstairs
2. I bought a Coca Cola from the machine in the second-floor lunchroom
3. I came back down to the first floor and started eating my lunch
4. While down there I noticed Junior and (Norman) come in
5. I then went outside to watch the P. Parade (I was standing beside Mr Shelley when it all happened)
6. Just after that a police officer came running up into the front entrance etc

In the first official report of that first interrogation (by Agents Hosty & Bookhout), these claims were either fudged or distorted. In the second report on that same interrogation (by Agent Bookhout ALONE), the timeline and facts were completely distorted into the following garbage...............

1. I encountered a police officer and Mr Truly in the second-floor lunchroom (---> post-assassination)
2. I came down to the first floor and ate lunch (---> post-assassination)
3. I then went outside where I got chatting with Mr Shelley (---> post-assassination)

 

Oswald: I didn't shoot anybody.
Judge Ford: Okay, you can go.

[Alan Ford]

Baker wasn't as familiar with the floors in the Depository on the day of the assassination. He had his gun drawn as Truly and he went up the stairs; he wasn't counting stairs or floors. But it was a lower floor; that much he would be expected to remember.

~Grin~

Try as you might, Mr Organ, you won't succeed in turning the encounter with the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up into a second-floor lunchroom encounter with Mr Oswald. And Officer Baker's failure to identify the suspect just brought into the homicide office as the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up in the Depository only augments the hopelessness of your enterprise.

And that's before we even get to the fact that the DPD told press 11/22 that the encounter happened at the front entrance, just as Mr Oswald did. Perhaps your explanation is that Mr Oswald was granted access to freshly printed newspapers?

No, in 2019 we received stunning confirmation of what some smart folks had already suspected: Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he left the second-floor lunchroom well BEFORE the motorcade arrived, and went outside to watch said motorcade. He never confirmed any post-assassination lunchroom encounter. The chasm between Agent Hosty's initial draft interrogation report's treatment of this phase and the official reports' tells the tale: your heroes suppressed Mr Oswald's claims because these claims were veridical.

Also, Baker wouldn't lie under oath. Maybe a person of your character might.

Thus Spake the Warren Gullible! 

[Alan Ford]

If Baker's failure to recognize Oswald precludes Oswald being the man he encountered on "the third or fourth floor", doesn't it also preclude Oswald being the man Baker encountered at the front entrance?

Uh, no-----------the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up was suspicious and hence memorable, the guy at the front entrance not at all.

Mr Baker's affidavit makes absolutely no reference to the all-important fact that the man caught walking away from the stairway several floors up is the selfsame man he has just seen being brought in in handcuffs. You can't explain this, can you, Mr Organ?

Truly and Baker would have to be in cahoots to lie under oath about the Oswald encounter occurring on the second floor.

Officer Baker told the truth in his 11/22/63 affidavit. Afterwards he was pressurized into supporting the lunchroom fiction. He knew Mr Oswald didn't shoot JFK.

Also, since the "conspirators" had Baker's "third or fourth floor" affidavit, why didn't they have Truly and Baker lie that the encounter took place on either of those floors; moves Oswald closer to the sixth floor?

Super-embarrassing for DPD to admit that their officer made such an extraordinary blunder as to set an obviously suspicious man (caught walking away from the stairway several floors up!) loose.

Also NB!-----the real possibility existed that Mr Oswald's front-entrance alibi would come to light (via e.g. a photo or a courageous witness or three). A story placing Mr Oswald several floors up so soon after the shooting would expose Officer Baker & Mr Truly as liars. A lunchroom story much less risky (physically possible for Mr Oswald to have come up a floor via the front stairs and then gone through the office area or corridor)

The "Dallas Morning News" of Nov.23 (with news from the previous evening) reported ...

    "Police had encountered him [Oswald] while searching the building
     shortly after the assassination. They turned him loose when he was
     identified as an employee".

No reference to the front entrance.

Oh dear, Mr Organ, you should do your homework before wading in!

There are multiple references to a front-entrance encounter just after the shooting, e.g.

“As an officer rushed into the building Oswald rushed out. The policeman permitted him to pass after the building manager told the policeman that Oswald was an employee.” (Washington Post 11/23, quoting Chief Jesse Curry)

"Police said that a man who was identified as Oswald walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman “I work here” and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said." (Sydney Morning Herald, 11/24).

"As the Presidential limousine sped to the hospital the police dragnet went into action. Hicks said at just about that time, Oswald came out of the front door of the red bricked warehouse. A policeman asked him where he was going. He said he wanted to see what all the excitement was all about." (London Free Press, 11/23, quoting Det. Ed Hicks)

Amazing that Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes heard the same story from Mr Oswald. Mr Oswald must have been telepathic!

Here's what actually happened: Officer Baker raced up the steps and, seeking someone to show him the nearest stairway to the roof, asked Mr Oswald (standing by the front door) if he worked there. Mr Oswald said yes, but then Mr Truly arrived and offered to escort Officer Baker. This was later misrepresented as the officer challenging/stopping Mr Oswald.

Officer Baker then met a genuine Person of Interest (not Mr Oswald)--------------several floors up.

All this was known to Captain Fritz the afternoon of 11/22. Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade", and his story of encountering an officer and Mr Truly at the front entance, checked out.

 

[Bill Chapman]

i) yes, he works at the Depository
ii) yes, he was there, at his place of work, at the time.

Yes, he was also the nut with the high-powered rifle in the tall building who found it not hard to get at a president.

Grin..

[Alan Ford]

Yes. And on November 22nd, Baker associated that man with Oswald.

Nope-----the affidavit makes no such linkage. You lose!

That's the whole reason the encounter (the only one in his affidavit) was mentioned at all. Because as Baker went to give his affidavit, he saw Oswald and remembered him from the earlier encounter. Baker got the room level wrong, understandable given he was never in the building before and wasn't making note of the floor level at the time.

    "Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw
          him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him
          down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into
          the building and on up what we are discussing now."

The words you quote disprove your claim: Officer Baker tells us here that he went to City Hall in order "to give the affidavit, the statement" about his encounter & the actions of himself and Mr. Truly. Going in to give his statement, he was already well aware, in retrospect, of the likely significance of the encounter with the man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up. That encounter was the chief point of the statement he went in to give.

Baker's affidavit doesn't say the man he encountered in the Depository wasn't Oswald (maybe he didn't know Oswald's name when he made his affidavit).

OK, so all he has to do is say, "I have just seen this man brought into the Homicide Office in custody". Yet he doesn't. You lose!

And we have his testimony that upon seeing Oswald, he was compelled to add detail about the encounter.

Where in his testimony does he say that upon seeing Mr Oswald he was compelled to add detail about the encounter? Or are you just compelled to make this detail up because your argument is so weak?

Otherwise, the encounter was of no significance as it was just a workman vouched for by Roy Truly.

Why would a Depository employee have been incapable of being the gunman? Kindly explain your logic, Mr Organ!

Not at all embarrassing (your semantic gyrations; now that's embarrassing), as Truly vouched for the man. Oswald was unarmed so how was Baker knowingly letting a killer go?

Where are you getting 'knowingly' from, Mr Organ? Learn to read, sir!

The decision to let a man caught walking away from the rear stairway several floors up was a major error of judgment. Again, why would being an employee rule someone out as a gunman?

Hard to believe early press reports would get something garbled up. How about the early press report of the mortally-injured Kennedy being removed from Dealey Plaza in a bus?

Ah, so now you accept that there were indeed---------contrary to your earlier assertion---------multiple reports of a front entrance encounter! 

And you obviously can't explain Mr Oswald's own telepathic placing of the encounter just there! 

The Fantasy Island reboot will premiere a week from tomorrow. I take it you're booked.

Another weak cope 

[Zeon Mason]

Did Fritz add the part about Oswald being surprised by officer with gun pointed at him?

If encounter is at the TSBD front door or just inside the front lobby , Baker hasn’t drawn his gun yet, so Oswald as PM would not likely  have made any statement about a gun

Pauline Sanders would have likely elaborated more detail on seeing officer if some encounter happened right at  the front door if it involved officer with gun drawn?

since Baker states drawing out his gun when reaching the FIRST staircase, there might be a higher probability of an encounter with Oswald at the storage room just beside the front staircase and the passenger elevator.

There is not enough time for PM to get much farther into the front entrance lobby (preceding Baker) than to approximately near the storage room and front staircase, as per the Darnell film showing Baker arriving almost to the front steps and PM can still be seen not having moved from the west corner of the entrance landing.

There is the possibility that PM Is one of the two men Baker states he saw just as Baker entered the TSBD, one being near the elevator and the other some 20 ft away .