Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

[Zeon Mason]

I don’t have the skills that Mr.Ford has at posting photos etc., so I just comment on what my opinion is after observing what already has been posted in this thread ( which is becoming a almost a library at this point:)

It’s still my opinion that the black man is more likely to be Carl Jones.

It’s curious that the WC investigators seem to have avoided a more rigorous interview with Jones and Lewis.

In that more recent  interview of Lewis , near the end of it, a women questions why it appears that the black man in Altgens photo is looking towards Daltex building. Lewis looks at the screen and is not able to give any reason, , and he seems a bit confused.

Note: the abbreviation  BDM will be used for “black doorman” to  designate the black man whom is at the lower west side steps of TSBD and whom Is either Roy Lewis or Carl Jones.

The b&w Weigman film  clips  shows the pants and shirt of “black doorman” (BDM) being  a very light tone of gray approaching almost as white as other shirts of other persons such as Sarah Stanton (fluffy shirt person raising both hands to shade her eyes).

[Alan Ford]

I don’t have the skills that Mr.Ford has at posting photos etc., so I just comment on what my opinion is after observing what already has been posted in this thread ( which is becoming a almost a library at this point:)

It’s still my opinion that the black man is more likely to be Carl Jones.

It’s curious that the WC investigators seem to have avoided a more rigorous interview with Jones and Lewis.

In that more recent  interview of Lewis , near the end of it, a women questions why it appears that the black man in Altgens photo is looking towards Daltex building. Lewis looks at the screen and is not able to give any reason, , and he seems a bit confused.

Note: the abbreviation  BDM will be used for “black doorman” to  designate the black man whom is at the lower west side steps of TSBD and whom Is either Roy Lewis or Carl Jones.

The b&w Weigman film  clips  shows the pants and shirt of “black doorman” (BDM) being  a very light tone of gray approaching almost as white as other shirts of other persons such as Sarah Stanton (fluffy shirt person raising both hands to shade her eyes).

In one sense, Mr. Mason, this has become a side-issue since the resolution of the Lovelady vs. LHO question in Hughes-Bell-Towner: the identity of the black man in front of Mr. Oswald does not have any bearing on the identity of Mr. Oswald. The critical issue is not Jones vs. Lewis but Lovelady vs. LHO.

However, it would be good to resolve the matter, not least because of its implications for the Altgens photograph. (To recap: I have argued that the 'investigating' authorities were desperate to obscure what they thought was Mr. Oswald's Coke-holding right arm, and pasted in the face of the black man they thought was just in front of him in the doorway; they found an aftermath profile image of him and used it.)

Now! Let's separate out the questions:

Q1. Is the black man in front of Mr. Oswald in Hughes Mr. Carl Edward Jones?
Q2. If he is NOT Mr. Jones, is he Mr. Roy Edward Lewis?

Re. Q1:

Here's Mr. Jones (or at least the man we all presume to be Mr. Carl Edward Jones) in a color photograph, with a person in white in his vicinity:



And here's the black man in front of Mr. Oswald in Hughes, with a person in white (Ms. Madie Reese) in his vicinity:



I am perturbed by the two very different color stories being told in these respective images.

As it happens, Mr. Hughes has already filmed a man who looks & is dressed strikingly like our Mr. Carl Edward Jones----------walking south at Main-Houston shortly before the motorcade:



He offers a useful point of comparison. Not a hint of blue on the pre-motorcade man (other than his gloves). Can anyone make a gif of this man in which his clothes show up in a shade of blue?

On the other side, here's an aftermath image from Hughes of what appears to be our 'Mr. Jones' from later in the Hughes film. He's leaning against the street pole:



The color of his clothes is more metallic here. HOWEVER: just look at the color of the brown brickwork on the Depository----------very different to the more naturalistic tone of Mr. Hughes' pre-motorcade footage of the Depository front.

If all this can be resolved in favor of our Mr. Jones, then great. But I'm just not at all convinced at this point.

Re. Q2:

I am honestly perturbed by the Bronson film footage of a man who looks (at least from behind) a ringer for the young man we see standing with our Mr. Jones in the aftermath images:




And, while the young man with our Mr. Jones does look quite like Mr. Roy Edward Lewis as shown in MUCH later images (photo in No More Silence + recent conference appearance), I would caution against the assumption that this young man is Mr. Lewis.

IF he is Mr. Lewis, and IF that is him in Bronson, then he was not in the doorway at the time of the assassination. This would offer an alternative explanation for his 'confused' recollection of where he went and what he saw in that doorway.

Which would leave us where exactly? Well, with a third possibility that is worth considering: the black man standing in front of Mr. Oswald in the doorway is NEITHER of the two black men we have been taking to be Mr. Carl Edward Jones and Mr. Roy Edward Lewis.

***

What I do NOT question is that the face in profile we see in 'Canonical Altgens' is that of the man in cream clothing on the steps seen in aftermath images. I believe the 'investigating' authorities assumed him to be the black man in front of Mr. Oswald in Wiegman, and took a profile image of him from one of the aftermath photos and pasted it in (with further retouching, e.g. of hair). His face is not in the Cronkite version of Altgens, the only (so I have argued) time the American public were shown the unaltered Altgens photograph.

Here are two profile shots of that man I have taken from two aftermath images. Either could have formed the basis of the profile face we see in post-Cronkite Altgens:





 

[Alan Ford]

Mr. Oswald is on the fourth step up, which would appear to put Mr. Lovelady, when he makes his fleeting leaning appearance in Hughes, up on the landing:



 

[Alan Ford]

Now! Let's separate out the questions:

Q1. Is the black man in front of Mr. Oswald in Hughes Mr. Carl Edward Jones?
Q2. If he is NOT Mr. Jones, is he Mr. Roy Edward Lewis?

I am interested in this hitherto unidentified fellow standing behind the glass of the front entrance:



The fact that he is in the front lobby of the building strongly suggests he is an employee.

Is this the same guy (black arrow), seen outside? I think so:



Given that we have never seen a verified photograph of Mr. Carl Edward Jones, I think the man at the black arrow may be at least as strong a candidate for the 33-year-old TSBD employee Mr. Carl Edward Jones as the man at the white arrow.

Murray shows this man in short sleeves, which would seem to rule him out as the man in front of Mr. Oswald during the motorcade:



Seems to me the black man showing up in blue in Hughes in front of Mr. Oswald at the time of the assassination may well be none of the the black men shown in the photograph with the black & white arrows.

 

[Alan Ford]

Ms. Ruth Dean's dark top is a short jacket rather than a coat---------Wiegman and Bell show the lighter-colored skirt/dress covering the lower part of her body:




This means that Mr. Hackerott is correct that the blue just to the (i.e. our) right of Mr. Lovelady is NOT Ms. Dean. It may indeed, as he suggests, be the pants of a man standing on the landing BEHIND him!

 

[Alan Ford]

Seems to me the black man showing up in blue in Hughes in front of Mr. Oswald at the time of the assassination may well be none of the the black men shown in the photograph with the black & white arrows.

Well!

Look at these two figures on each side of the doorway in Towner:



What's interesting about the person on the right (green arrow) is that their left elbow is clearly out in front of the white column. (They appear to be shielding their eyes from the sun.) This surely puts them no further up than the second step up:



So---------two figures on the second step up.

Now let's compare with these two figures standing on the second step up (=fifth step down) in Willis:



The bigger guy in Willis only comes up to the top of the THIRD row of white grid stonework (beside doorway). Now compare the figure on the right (green arrow) in Towner:



This person is standing on the same step as 'Carl Edward Jones' is standing on in Willis (second step up = fifth step down), yet their head is well up to a level with the FOURTH row of stonework.

This person is surely too tall to be a woman. Who the heck is he?

 

[Alan Ford]

This person is surely too tall to be a woman. Who the heck is he?

Well, here's what I'm thinking:

He's none other than the black man in cream-colored clothing we see here in Willis, only in Towner he is standing on tiptoe to see Pres. Kennedy over folks' heads-------------



---------------------> Cream-colored man was indeed in the doorway at the time of the P. Parade, but over at the far EAST side. After the shots, he ran out to the street pole:



And he shows up in Hughes not in a strange hue of BLUE but in just the color you would expect him to show up in:



As for our friend in blue, standing just in front of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald, he may after all be NEITHER of these two men but a DIFFERENT black man:



 

[Alan Ford]

As for our friend in blue, standing just in front of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald, he may after all be NEITHER of these two men but a DIFFERENT black man:

One thing we can say about the man on the far east side of the doorway------------whom I have tentatively identified as our cream-colored-clothes man seen in Willis, i.e. Mr. Carl Edward Jones-------------is that he is TALL.

But so is our man in blue on the WEST side, whose spatial relationship to the white column tells us he is only TWO STEPS UP:



If only there were another TALL BLACK male employee-----------other, that is, than Mr. Carl Edward Jones------------who might fit the bill for our man in blue over by the west column of the doorway.

Well, here's a thing................





Have you ever been struck by the fact that Mr. Charles Givens is the only manual worker in the Depository who puts himself away from Dealey Plaza at the time of the P. Parade?

And have you ever wondered why it was that, just as the cops were closing in on Mr. Oswald at the Texas Theatre, DPD were suddenly desperately anxious to get a hold of this same Mr. Charles Givens?



So! I have a simple question: Was Mr. Charles Givens dressed in light blue clothing that day?