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Author Topic: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2  (Read 443654 times)

Offline Allan Fritzke

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2984 on: December 24, 2020, 07:37:43 PM »
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Are you saying there’s something wrong with a large voter turnout? Should it be more difficult for people to exercise their right to vote?

Also, where was there any vote harvesting?

On election night,  Trump was in a commanding lead.  How were those results put on teevee?   That was in person voting.   Then, election polling was closed.   You have that ratio of votes that you saw.   In a normal vote, you would expect the mail in ratio would be similar to what you saw in live polling.  Instead, you saw a flip.    After 3 days of mail in counting, enough votes were found by mail to overthrow the live polling results.   Is that how popular vote works?  They were "scared" to go in person and so all results cast in that manner favored Biden.

Then, all these mail in votes were mixed in with the rest so you can't even compare anymore.  You can only see the results when live polls closed where Trump had a commanding lead and compare them to what you saw by next morning.   In a place like Florida, was there a massive Biden surge in votes due to mail in?   Or was the ratio between live votes and mail in votes there similar?   Launch an argument that the mail in vote ratio there was the same for Biden as it was in a place like Georgia.   Statistics should say they are very similar when comparing live vote ratio to mail in ratio as you are giving the shut-ins a way to vote.    Democrats there should be no different in their casting then Democrats in Georgia.

Election integrity means you need to look at the physical ballots and not just feed them through the same machines that gave the same score last time.  Each ballot needs vetting and yes the process takes time.    Verify signatures, addresses and identities.  Look at things like if ballots came out of an envelope and had creases on them or were they stacked and fed in and had no creases.   See if the adjudicated votes matched those fed in.   Mail in votes should be scrutinized just as hard as those that came in person to vote. 

If this was examined and shown that Biden won, there was and is no problem.   However, if you have affidavits signed (and perjury is punishable by incarceration), then lets throw these people into jail for lying about what they put their signatures.  Let's make the case and prove it.   We saw how the FBI worked over campaign workers in the Trump campaign and incarcerated them for lying to them, lets force the judges to make real decisions instead of just throwing out the accusation as being unfounded, lacked evidence and not worth pursuing.  No time for that!

We can't prove that anyone used the machines fraudulently to count votes and never will.  However, if you insist on using machines which have the capability written in the operator's manual to divide votes by percentage, there is a major problem.  The Scribd expert report shows that.   They redacted the operator's manual picture proving what they said was true by the judge?  Why would they do that?   Confidential information or exposure of truth and obviously they must have had a picture to back up their statement about this algorithm?   As well, there was a common user name and password entry into the system they said that allows multiple users access to the same voting records,  there is a problem with accountability.  Plausible deniability by anyone with access!   How hard would it be to have a machine count 1+1+1?    For some reason, these electronic voting systems were not used across the entire country in all states.    Why not?    Votes were allowed to be changed in the adjudication process electronically  and  to "cure" votes.   Sorry, the electronic system is compromised and if it continues to be used, you will see the same results as in Venezuela,  55/45 perhaps?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 07:38:53 PM by Allan Fritzke »

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2984 on: December 24, 2020, 07:37:43 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2985 on: December 24, 2020, 07:54:39 PM »
On election night,  Trump was in a commanding lead.  How were those results put on teevee?   That was in person voting.   Then, election polling was closed.   You have that ratio of votes that you saw.   In a normal vote, you would expect the ratio would be similar to what you saw in live polling.  Instead, you saw a flip.    After 3 days of mail in counting, enough votes were found by mail to overthrow the live polling results.   Is that how popular vote works?  They were "scared" to go in person and so all results cast in that manner favored Biden.

Then, all thesemail in votes were mixed in with the rest so you can't even compare anymore.  You can only see the results when live polls closed where Trump had a commanding lead and compare them to what you saw by next morning.   In a place like Florida, was there a massive Biden surge in votes due to mail in?   Or was the ratio between live votes and mail in votes there similar?   Launch an argument that the mail in vote ratio there was the same for Biden as it was in a place like Georgia.   Statistics should say they are very similar when comparing live vote ratio to mail in ratio as you are giving the shut-ins a way to vote.    Democrats there should be no different in their casting then Democrats in Georgia.

Election integrity means you need to look at the physical ballots and not just feed them through the same machines that gave the same score last time.  Each ballot needs vetting and yes the process takes time.    Verify signatures, addresses and identities.  Look at things like if ballots came out of an envelope and had creases on them or were they stacked and fed in and had no creases.   See if the adjudicated votes matched those fed in.   Mail in votes should be scrutinized just as hard as those that came in person to vote. 

If this was examined and shown that Biden won, there was and is no problem.   However, if you have affidavits signed (and perjury is punishable by incarceration), then lets throw these people into jail for lying about what they put their signatures.  Let's make the case and prove it.   We saw how the FBI worked over campaign workers in the Trump campaign and incarcerated them for lying to them, lets force the judges to make real decisions instead of just throwing out the accusation as being unfounded, lacked evidence and not worth pursuing.  No time for that!

We can't prove that anyone used the machines fraudulently to count votes and never will.  However, if you insist on using machines which have the capability written in the operator's manual to divide votes by percentage, there is a major problem.  The Scribd expert report shows that.   They redacted the operator's manual picture proving what they said was true by the judge?  Why would they do that?   Confidential information or exposure of truth and obviously they must have had a picture to back up their statement about this algorithm?   As well, there was a common user name and password entry into the system they said that allows multiple users access to the same voting records,  there is a problem with accountability.  Plausible deniability by anyone with access!   How hard would it be to have a machine count 1+1+1?    For some reason, these electronic voting systems were not used across the entire country in all states.    Why not?    Votes were allowed to be changed in the adjudication process electronically  and  to "cure" votes.   Sorry, the electronic system is compromised and if it continues to be used, you will see the same results as in Venezuela,  55/45 perhaps?

On election night,  Trump was in a commanding lead.  How were those results put on teevee?   That was in person voting.   Then, election polling was closed.   You have that ratio of votes that you saw.   In a normal vote, you would expect the ratio would be similar to what you saw in live polling. 

No you wouldn't expect that because more Democratic voters voted by mail and more Republican voters voted in person. So, during election day the in person votes, which were skewed in favor of Trump were counted resulting in his lead, and after that the mail in ballots, which were in favor of Biden. Those mail in votes couldn't be counted earlier in many states because the Republicans objected to that. In Florida they counted the mail in ballots first resulting in a lead for Biden and once they counted the in person votes Trump got more votes and won.

If this was examined and shown that Biden won, there was and is no problem. 

Trump being Trump there would always be a problem if he lost. He was preparing for that prior to the election by saying the only way he could lose was if there was fraud. He knew from the constant lead Biden had in the polls that he was likely going to lose and starting preparing for what we see now, well before election day.

However, if you have affidavits signed (and perjury is punishable by incarceration), then lets throw these people into jail for lying about what they put their signatures.   

Oh please, stop the dramatics. In those affidavits people said what they thought they had seen. That's not perjury. In the JFK case plenty of witnesses made statements in affidavits that later were found to be incorrect.

We can't prove that anyone used the machines fraudulently to count votes and never will.

Case closed! Move on

However, if you insist on using machines which have the capability written in the operator's manual to divide votes by percentage, there is a major problem.

You really need to keep up with the news. The person who is going to have a major problem is Sidney Powell when she gets hit with lawsuits by Dominion and Smartmatic.

Fox News and Newsmax did not jump ship for nothing;



You really need to stop repeating already debunked claims.


« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 10:17:34 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2986 on: December 25, 2020, 12:31:59 AM »

Quote
'VOTER FRAUD IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY, IT IS A FACT!!!'
Trump tweeted shortly after aiming his ire at GOP U.S. senators. 

Spoken like a true CTer.

Question:

Is there any CTer who doesn’t claim that their conspiracy theory, whatever it may be, fake Moon Landing, 9/11, etc., is a fact, and not a conspiracy theory?


If so, I would like to have someone name one.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 12:34:09 AM by Joe Elliott »

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2986 on: December 25, 2020, 12:31:59 AM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2987 on: December 25, 2020, 01:37:46 AM »
Trump tweeted shortly after aiming his ire at GOP U.S. senators. 

Spoken like a true CTer.

Question:

Is there any CTer who doesn’t claim that their conspiracy theory, whatever it may be, fake Moon Landing, 9/11, etc., is a fact, and not a conspiracy theory?


If so, I would like to have someone name one.

I'm not sure if you are going to follow this, but even if Oswald did it (alone or with others) the WC cover up, to wrap the crime around him, was also a conspiracy.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2988 on: December 25, 2020, 03:31:55 AM »

I'm not sure if you are going to follow this, but even if Oswald did it (alone or with others) the WC cover up, to wrap the crime around him, was also a conspiracy.

Believers in Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theories all think that their theory is true, because it is an established fact, in their mind.

How to tell the difference between a Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracy Theory and a much more reasonable Conspiracy Theory?

1.   The number of people the CTer thinks were involved in the conspiracy. One hundred or more, who all keep silent throughout their life, is unbelievable.

2.   However, since many CTers are dishonest with themselves on this number, a more reliable way is to ask “What was the goal of the conspiracy”?

If they give a huge goal, this is unlikely to be obtained by a small conspiracy.

So, if the goal of the conspiracy is:

•   To have the Jews control the world – Elders of Zion Conspiracy Theory – Too large a goal for a secret conspiracy
•   To fake the Moon Landings – hundreds of thousands working on a project they think will work
•   9/11 attacks – Planting tons of explosives in large busy buildings with no one noticing.
•   2020 Presidential Election Rigging – many programmers, many others making millions of bogus ballots needed.

All of these are unbelievable because it would take a large number of people to pull this off, and then have them all remain silent about it. Or the goal is so huge it would have to be a large conspiracy.

Other conspiracy theories seem to require psychic knowledge from the conspirators:

•   The “Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor and did nothing” requires him to know ahead of time, that as a result of Pearl Harbor, Germany will declare war on the United States. Otherwise, the U. S. will be in the wrong war, not against Nazi Germany but Japan.

•   “JFK was assassination to get the U. S. in a large Vietnam war, requires the conspirators to know that North Vietnam will greatly escalate the war in 1964. Otherwise, there is no need to send a large army to defend South Vietnam. How did the conspirators know, in November 1963, that North Vietnam would do that?


Even the “Oswald did it with just a few others, but the Warren Commission covered it up” is unbelievable, because there were a lot of people involved in the Warren Commission investigation. Always having an investigator who decides to cover up something that he stumbles on is unlikely if only a few people in the investigation were involved in the coverup.


While Allan Fritzke has been heavily criticized on this thread, he really isn’t being logically inconsistent. He is doing the same sort of reasoning he always does.

The Election wasn’t rigged in just one way, by mailing in fraudulent ballots. It was rigged in many ways, like using fraudulent computers to count the ballots.

Just as many people have stepped forward to talk of being involved with Jack Ruby in various gun running and other questionable activities, many have stepped forward to say they saw people counting the same ballots over and over again, saw ballots being smuggled in, saying all sorts of things. Allan accepts all these stories just as many CTers tend to accept all the stories they hear about Jack Ruby.

The heavy use of a large number of points, hoping that something sticks, is common to both groups.

The statistical sorts of arguments so loved by many CTers in the JFK, the astronomical odds of a certain set of people involved in the JFK case dying in the next 5 years, is mirrored by the statistics that Trump himself tweets about, that the odds of Biden overtaking his lead in all 6 swing states are astronomical. Believers in Large-Secret-Enduring Conspiracies tend to use the same sort of arguments for various different conspiracies.

Question:

Is the type of thinking Allan Fritzke uses to evaluate the “2020 Presidential Election was rigged” Conspiracy Theory all that different from his type of thinking regarding the “JFK” Conspiracy Theory?


If so, how is it different?

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2988 on: December 25, 2020, 03:31:55 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2989 on: December 25, 2020, 06:12:38 PM »
------
THEN
------



------
NOW
------

Which party will try to shut America down?

Which party will obstruct Biden from Day1?

Which party will even vote against their own
ideas so as to obstruct Biden at all costs?

« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 09:01:05 PM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2990 on: December 25, 2020, 07:57:03 PM »

------
THEN
------



------
NOW
------

Which party will try to shut America down?

Which party will obstruct Biden from Day1?

Which party will even vote against their own
ideas so as to obstruct Biden at all costs?

All this I could tolerate. Even the stupid wall. Because we need at least two parties. So, I remained a Republican and hoped for change within the party. But enough is enough.

Trump is trying to overturn a valid Presidential election. The standard first step in becoming a dictator for life. And using the usual argument, that the election was rigged.

75 % of Republican voters seem to accept this unfounded claim. Accept that the voting machines were rigged despite the manual recounts which clearly show they were not. Worse, way too many Republicans in the Senate and House seem to at least be going through the motions of supporting this. They are afraid of being primaried out. Their commitment to getting reelected is greater than their commitment to democracy, to the will of the people, to basic American principles.

I believe in Capitalism, in keeping government spending down to a reasonable level. In 1945, Britain turned against Churchill and the Conservative party and adopted socialism. But democracy remained. They followed the will of the people. Eventually, the people of Britain wised up and went back to Capitalism under Margaret Thatcher and they recovered.

Of course, Churchill would never do such a thing. He was a good man, a great man. His commitment to Democracy was always at the forefront. Never to take a back seat to his pride or anything else.

Would Britain have been better off if Churchill declared the 1945 elections rigged, voided it, and stayed in power. Perhaps in the short run. But the resulting dictatorship would become unresponsive to the will of the people and could ruin Britain down to the present day.

Democracy, the will of the people, is more important than capitalism. Besides, are the Republicans really vastly better than the Democrats at keeping government spending down?

So, enough is enough. Once the pandemic is under control, I will go re-register as a Democrat or an Independent.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 08:01:56 PM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2991 on: December 25, 2020, 08:00:01 PM »

By the way, if this 2020 Presidential Election conspiracy theory continues beyond January 2021, which I am sure it will, who can doubt that we will soon see a list of mysterious deaths of Dominion Voting Systems employees, poll workers, poll watchers, and government officials involved in this controversy?

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #2991 on: December 25, 2020, 08:00:01 PM »