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Author Topic: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2  (Read 338149 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3160 on: January 04, 2021, 07:43:03 AM »
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The Secretary of State of Georgia has been criticized for recording his conversation with President Trump and releasing it to the public.

I would like to make a few points:

1.   I doubt this is the first time Trump threaten Mr. Raffensperger. Hence, the need to make a recording. If Trump prevails and criminal charges were brought against Mr. Raffensperger, the existence of this tape would make a prosecution of Raffensperger very difficult. I think Mr. Raffensperger now has the next best thing to a Presidential pardon. You’re going to need an extremely red jury willing to overlook the possibility that any charges brought against him were politically motivated. I suspect that Mr. Raffensperger made and released this tape on the advice of his attorney, Mr. Germany (a great last name, according to Trump).

2.   The family of the Secretary of the State of Georgia has been threatened by members of the public. If this tape serves to discredit Trump it may give some level of protection to other election officials who are doing their duty.

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3160 on: January 04, 2021, 07:43:03 AM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3161 on: January 04, 2021, 05:09:43 PM »
Richard. I was wondering. Have you read the transcripts of the conversation between Trump and the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger? I’ll provide it again below:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/politics/trump-brad-raffensperger-phone-call-transcript/index.html

Does this country need more fiscal responsibility? Yes. But does it have to come from Trump? Isn’t it time we start looking to someone else?

And by the way, was Trump really effective at reducing the deficit? Was he as good as Clinton?

Trump believes - rightly or wrongly - that he won the Georgia election by a large margin if only lawful votes are counted.  This belief is based on the not unreasonable grounds that Georgia has been a solid red state, that tens of thousands of people were showing up at his rallies (while almost none for China Joe), and certain questionable incidents resulting from the changes made in the election laws that might have affected more than the slim 11k vote margin (including that Biden received a disproportionate number of the mail in votes).

The media is spinning the call as a request to manufacture fake votes to allow Trump to steal Georgia. That is the typical negative spin. Trump is arguing that he won the election by a large margin (i.e. 400K votes) and that only a very small number of the unlawful votes against him need to be invalidated to change the outcome.  In other words, the Georgia officials don't need to find all the hundreds of thousands of unlawful votes that Trump believes were counted are invalid but only a small number.  That is a perfectly legitimate argument for him to make.  Others may disagree that there is a factual basis for his claims but Trump has not suggested anything illegal about excluding unlawful votes.   

The media also continues to falsely exaggerate reports that Georgia election officials and voters received death threats from Trump supporters.  In fact, the FBI recently confirmed those are coming from Iran in an attempt to discredit Trump's efforts.  A very real and confirmed example of foreign interference into our elections.  But the media hardly mentions that because it is inconsistent with their desired narrative.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3162 on: January 04, 2021, 05:48:14 PM »

Trump believes - rightly or wrongly - that he won the Georgia election by a large margin if only lawful votes are counted.  This belief is based on the not unreasonable grounds that Georgia has been a solid red state, that tens of thousands of people were showing up at his rallies (while almost none for China Joe), and certain questionable incidents resulting from the changes made in the election laws that might have affected more than the slim 11k vote margin (including that Biden received a disproportionate number of the mail in votes).

Well, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin were solid blue states until 2016 when Trump won them. No one stated that there must have been election fraud have changed these states. Changes in the election law are not uncommon. I think they are always tweaking the law. In some years they prune the voter lists more than other years. Just recently, a cousin of Martin Luther King Jr. was pruned form a list and unable to vote even though she hadn’t missed a Presidential election in over 40 years. We can’t declare an election invalid just because the election law was changed and the next election in a state was close.

Biden naturally received a disproportionate number of mail-in votes because he encouraged voters to mail in their ballots, because of COVID-19. Just as he discouraged large Democratic rallies. While Trump told his supporters not to mail in their ballots. So, we can’t declare this election invalid because Biden had such a high percentage of mail in ballots.

And Georgia has had a lot of people move in from out of state recently so it is natural that it’s voting pattern can change. Nothing is more common than changes in voting pattern over time for an individual state.


The media is spinning the call as a request to manufacture fake votes to allow Trump to steal Georgia. That is the typical negative spin. Trump is arguing that he won the election by a large margin (i.e. 400K votes) and that only a very small number of the unlawful votes against him need to be invalidated to change the outcome.  In other words, the Georgia officials don't need to find all the hundreds of thousands of unlawful votes that Trump believes were counted are invalid but only a small number.  That is a perfectly legitimate argument for him to make.  Others may disagree that there is a factual basis for his claims but Trump has not suggested anything illegal about excluding unlawful votes.   

This is an illegal call to pressure an election official for the votes he needs. It can’t be legal just because Trump claimed he was the real winner. If this defense is allowed, any corrupt politician and pressure an honest election official at will merely by stating that he is the true winner and the election official just has to find enough votes to partially make up for this. And be free to use his power the threaten or bribe or have others threaten him or his family. This cannot be allowed to happen merely because the corrupt politician continuously claims that he is the true winner.


The media also continues to falsely exaggerate reports that Georgia election officials and voters received death threats from Trump supporters.  In fact, the FBI recently confirmed those are coming from Iran in an attempt to discredit Trump's efforts.  A very real and confirmed example of foreign interference into our elections.  But the media hardly mentions that because it is inconsistent with their desired narrative.

Threats of criminal prosecution alone are more than enough of a threat. Trump shouldn’t have been talking directly to an election official at all, let alone be making any threats. Any information he wishes the Secretary of State to have can be passed alone by attorneys, and does not have to be conveyed directly by the President who has such power to make direct threats. The Secretary of State of Georgia did not want to talk directly to Trump and had avoided it for weeks until Trump insisted on doing so even though it looks bad to have such a conservation.

If Biden is sworn in, do you want Biden to threaten Secretary of States of various states if he loses 2024 by 7 million votes?


Again, it is not time for you to abandon the principles of fiscally responsible government. But Trump doesn’t have to be the only possible champion of this. You need to find a new champion. A champion who is not fixated on stealing an election. And given how much the deficit has been recently, was Trump really ever a true champion? In any case I think it is possible that tomorrow’s senate race in Georgia will prove to all that a new champion needs to be found. We shall see.

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3162 on: January 04, 2021, 05:48:14 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3163 on: January 04, 2021, 06:16:36 PM »

Question:

If a powerful corrupt politician calls an election official, and explains to him that he knows he lost the election. But he doesn’t care. He wants to win. So that election better “find him” the votes he needs to win. Otherwise, he is subject to criminal prosecution.

Is this acceptable?

If not, does it become acceptable so long as the politician always expresses the belief that he was the true winner?


And why would it be better to have the election decided by a special commission, as Senator Ted Cruz and others want, if that special commission can be subjected to threats of criminal prosecution if they fail to find that Trump was the true winner? Even if Trump is removed from office, he might still have enough clout in a state to get a criminal prosecution rolling. Why is this better than the current results we have now which, I believe, were conducted by honest officials not being threatened by criminal prosecution if he was determined that the voters voted for the wrong guy?

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3164 on: January 04, 2021, 10:07:16 PM »
Others may disagree that there is a factual basis for his claims but Trump has not suggested anything illegal about excluding unlawful votes.

As predicted. Trump can do no wrong.   

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3164 on: January 04, 2021, 10:07:16 PM »


Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3165 on: January 05, 2021, 01:05:23 AM »
Hey Mr Crow. Hope you are well. Would appreciate some science based info from you. Re: vaccines and immunity. Please. Thx. 

Or I could travel down great Barrington st, to scott atlas.  ( I think Teddy Atlas is smarter than scott atlas)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3166 on: January 05, 2021, 05:16:04 AM »

What Trump got right during last Saturday’s phone call:

Quote
Germany: We had our — this is Ryan Germany. We had our law enforcement officers talk to everyone who was who was there after that event came to light. GBI was with them as well as FBI agents.
Trump: Well, there's no way they could — then they're incompetent. They're either dishonest or incompetent, okay?
Mitchell: Well, what did they find?
Trump: There's only two answers, dishonesty or incompetence. There's just no way. Look. There's no way. And on the other thing, I said too, there is no way. I mean, there's no way that these things could have been you know, you have all these different people that voted but they don't live in Georgia anymore. What was that number, Cleta? That was a pretty good number too.
Mitchell: The number who have registered out of state after they moved from Georgia. And so they had a date when they moved from Georgia, they registered to vote out of state. And then it's like 4,500, I don't have that number right in front of me.
Trump: And then they came back in and they voted.
Mitchell: And voted. Yeah.
Trump: I thought that was a large number, though. It was in the 20s. The point is...
Germany: We've been going through each of those as well and those numbers that we got that Ms. Mitchell was just saying, they're not accurate. Every one we've been through, are people that lived in Georgia, moved to a different state, but then moved back to Georgia legitimately. And in many cases
Trump: How many people do that? They moved out and then they said, "Ah, to hell with it I'll move back." You know, it doesn't sound like a very normal ... you mean, they moved out, and what, they missed it so much that they wanted to move back in? It's crazy.

It appears thousands of people moved out of Georgia, voted elsewhere, then moved back into Georgia and voted in the 2020 election in Georgia. Trump thought that was crazy. I think that is crazy too. I’ve been to Georgia in August. It’s not something a normal person would do. Once they move out of Georgia, you would think they would be gone for good. Now I can see living there for your whole life. It’s different if you just don’t know any better. But moving back? I don’t know. Perhaps there is some rational explanation. Maybe they were rabid Braves fans. In any case the FBI checked this out and found nothing suspicious. It sounds like the agents are either dishonest or incompetent. Although they did conduct their investigation in the winter, so that may be the explanation.

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3166 on: January 05, 2021, 05:16:04 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory - Part 2
« Reply #3167 on: January 05, 2021, 05:20:03 AM »
Hey Mr Crow. Hope you are well. Would appreciate some science based info from you. Re: vaccines and immunity. Please. Thx. 

Or I could travel down great Barrington st, to scott atlas.  ( I think Teddy Atlas is smarter than scott atlas)

Hey John,

We are doing ok "down under". As you may be aware there are a couple of Covid mutations causing concern. One is from the UK and is much more infectious than the original. Another has emerged from South Africa and appears even more infectious. The data so far seems to indicate that they do not cause more severe disease but the mutations are in the attaching protein and "lock" the virus more securely onto our cells. Basically these variants will dominate populations through selection and increase the number of infected at any one time.

Of course your hospital systems are already at breaking point so for a period things are likely to get much worse.

As for vaccines the real game changer appears to be the Oxford version. It is at least 10x cheaper than Pfizer and Moderna and requires simple refrigeration for storage. It seems that the USA has not jumped on this version for some reason and your roll out has been lacking so far. There appears in the UK that they feel a single dose followed by a longer followup time is the way to go. They feel this will give increased coverage to more of the population. Just a single dose of Oxford afforded good protection in that no one in the trial group were hospitalised after just one dose.

As for the mutations mentioned above, at least at this point the vaccines appear to be effective for each, so that’s good news.

We might see some countries that are indicators of vaccine efficacy soon. I believe Israel has already vaccinated more than 10% of their population, when this increases even more it will be interesting to see how this soon this affects new daily cases appearing.

As for US politics, I find myself either shaking my head or laughing.......how anyone could continue to support the "clown shoe" in office is beyond me. They obviously don’t realise they cannot win with his "base"....it’s a losing percentage......he just got lucky in 2016. He alienates more against than for.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 09:53:42 AM by Colin Crow »