Victoria Adams’ view from the fourth floor window

[Charles Collins]

I have recently read most of the book “The Girl on the Stairs” by Barry Ernest. And here’s a quote from that book that helped clarify for me an aspect of Victoria Adams’ testimony about what she saw and heard when the shots were fired:

“I specifically asked if she remembered seeing Kennedy when she heard the first shot. “No,” she answered, “because I did not see the limousine at that time. It was under the tree.” As she gazed out the window, she said, the tree was “slightly to my right.””

Ernest’s book gives me the impression that Victoria Adams was a credible witness. But Victoria’s WC testimony left it a little unclear to me whether the first shot was fired just before JFK disappeared beneath the tree or just after he disappeared under the tree. The clarification, in Ernest’s book, inspired me to use my 3-D computer model to try to determine at approximately what point in time (z-frame) JFK would have disappeared from her view because of the tree.

I placed a generic tree in a position that corresponds with the tree’s position indicated on Don Roberdeaux’s map. I placed the 3-D virtual visitor’s view at the fourth floor window that Victoria testified that she watched the motorcade from. I already had a convertible with a male character sitting in the right rear seat placed in the position of JFK at Z-133, according to Don’s map. And it is apparent that JFK is hidden from the view by the tree from that window at the z-133 point in time.

I know that there are a few others here that have created their own 3-D computer models of Dealey Plaza. And if any one of them can help me verify my results with a similar experiment of their own, I would greatly appreciate it.

Anyone with a copy of Don’s map can simply place a straightedge between that window and the Z-133 mark indicated on Elm Street and see for themselves that it crosses the edge of the tree limbs. However, seeing it on a 3-D computer model helps to verify what it looks like from that elevation and location.

[Thomas Graves]

I have recently read most of the book “The Girl on the Stairs” by Barry Ernest. And here’s a quote from that book that helped clarify for me an aspect of Victoria Adams’ testimony about what she saw and heard when the shots were fired:

“I specifically asked if she remembered seeing Kennedy when she heard the first shot. “No,” she answered, “because I did not see the limousine at that time. It was under the tree.” As she gazed out the window, she said, the tree was “slightly to my right.””

Ernest’s book gives me the impression that Victoria Adams was a credible witness. But Victoria’s WC testimony left it a little unclear to me whether the first shot was fired just before JFK disappeared beneath the tree or just after he disappeared under the tree. The clarification, in Ernest’s book, inspired me to use my 3-D computer model to try to determine at approximately what point in time (z-frame) JFK would have disappeared from her view because of the tree.

I placed a generic tree in a position that corresponds with the tree’s position indicated on Don Roberdeaux’s map. I placed the 3-D virtual visitor’s view at the fourth floor window that Victoria testified that she watched the motorcade from. I already had a convertible with a male character sitting in the right rear seat placed in the position of JFK at Z-133, according to Don’s map. And it is apparent that JFK is hidden from the view by the tree from that window at the z-133 point in time.

I know that there are a few others here that have created their own 3-D computer models of Dealey Plaza. And if any one of them can help me verify my results with a similar experiment of their own, I would greatly appreciate it.

Anyone with a copy of Don’s map can simply place a straightedge between that window and the Z-133 mark indicated on Elm Street and see for themselves that it crosses the edge of the tree limbs. However, seeing it on a 3-D computer model helps to verify what it looks like from that elevation and location.

Charles,

From which window on the 4th floor did Adams watch the motorcade?

Roberdeau's map doesn't say.

--  MWT  ,)

[Thomas Graves]

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Adams and Styles and two other ladies were watching the parade from the third set of windows from the right hand corner of the building (i.e., just about thirty feet below and to the left of the "sniper's nest").

Styles said in a TV interview a few years ago that, in so many words, they heard "the three shots" just as the limo had come out of the Elm Street curve in front of the TSBD.

It's unfortunate that she didn't more accurately state that they heard ONLY THE FIRST SHOT at that point, because if she had, it would have tended to confirm what Amos Euins and Patricia Ann Lawrence-Donaldson said or implied to Max Holland in the 2011 National Geographic special, The Lost Bullet: that the first shot rang out when the limo was a few feet past the pole on the "island" with smallish highway signs on it.

--  MWT 

[Charles Collins]

Charles,

From which window on the 4th floor did Adams watch the motorcade?

Roberdeau's map doesn't say.

--  MWT  ,)

Thomas, if you look at Roberdeau's map you will see "Dorman 4th" written, with an arrow pointing to a dot inside the western most window of the third set of windows from the southeast corner. That is where all four of the ladies watched from and Dorman filmed. Victoria testified that she personally watched from the westernmost window of that set and that they had opened the window prior to the motorcade arriving to get a better view. So, it appears to me that they would be positioned and or crouched down a bit so that they could see the street through the lower half of the window (which is the half that one typically opens).

[Jerry Organ]

(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )

Adams and Styles and two other ladies were watching the parade from the third set of windows from the right hand corner of the building (i.e., just about thirty feet below and to the left of the "sniper's nest").

Styles said in a TV interview a few years ago that, in so many words, they heard "the three shots" just as the limo had come out of the Elm Street curve in front of the TSBD.

It's unfortunate that she didn't more accurately state that they heard ONLY THE FIRST SHOT at that point, because if she had, it would have tended to confirm what Amos Euins and Patricia Ann Lawrence-Donaldson said or implied to Max Holland in the 2011 National Geographic special, The Lost Bullet: that the first shot rang out when the limo was a few feet past the pole on the "island" with smallish highway signs on it.

--  MWT 

Euins said on the day of the assassination:

    "I watched the car [go] on down the street and about the time the car got near the black and white sign I heard a shot."

This as likely means the Thornton Freeway sign, not the sign cluster that Holland tried to make people think Euins was referring to.

"JFK: The Lost Bullet" (Limo positioned approx. at Z133)

[Royell Storing]

Euins said on the day of the assassination:

    "I watched the car [go] on down the street and about the time the car got near the black and white sign I heard a shot."

This as likely means the Thornton Freeway sign, not the sign cluster that Holland tried to make people think Euins was referring to.

"JFK: The Lost Bullet" (Limo positioned approx. at Z133)

      The more I consider the Euins story, the more skeptical of the at the time teenager's story I get. That pillar he claims to have ducked behind was the same pillar that the Girl and her Mom were standing atop as the JFK Limo rolled down Houston St and then turned onto Elm St. They NEVER mentioned a kid diving behind that pillar and being squatted down directly below them as Euins has claimed. Also, Euins later told the HSCA that he had a Camera with him that day. Being filmed/photographed numerous times after the shooting minus a camera, had Euins saying he did Not know what happened to it after the Kill Shot was fired. Euins story is fishy from start to finish.

[Dan O'meara]

I have recently read most of the book “The Girl on the Stairs” by Barry Ernest. And here’s a quote from that book that helped clarify for me an aspect of Victoria Adams’ testimony about what she saw and heard when the shots were fired:

“I specifically asked if she remembered seeing Kennedy when she heard the first shot. “No,” she answered, “because I did not see the limousine at that time. It was under the tree.” As she gazed out the window, she said, the tree was “slightly to my right.””

Ernest’s book gives me the impression that Victoria Adams was a credible witness. But Victoria’s WC testimony left it a little unclear to me whether the first shot was fired just before JFK disappeared beneath the tree or just after he disappeared under the tree. The clarification, in Ernest’s book, inspired me to use my 3-D computer model to try to determine at approximately what point in time (z-frame) JFK would have disappeared from her view because of the tree.

I placed a generic tree in a position that corresponds with the tree’s position indicated on Don Roberdeaux’s map. I placed the 3-D virtual visitor’s view at the fourth floor window that Victoria testified that she watched the motorcade from. I already had a convertible with a male character sitting in the right rear seat placed in the position of JFK at Z-133, according to Don’s map. And it is apparent that JFK is hidden from the view by the tree from that window at the z-133 point in time.

I know that there are a few others here that have created their own 3-D computer models of Dealey Plaza. And if any one of them can help me verify my results with a similar experiment of their own, I would greatly appreciate it.

Anyone with a copy of Don’s map can simply place a straightedge between that window and the Z-133 mark indicated on Elm Street and see for themselves that it crosses the edge of the tree limbs. However, seeing it on a 3-D computer model helps to verify what it looks like from that elevation and location.

Hey Charles,

I don't know if this is any help but it concerns something Gloria Calvery mentioned on her 'Hoover Questionnaire'. Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves have put together an excellent case identifying this woman (arrow) as Gloria Calvery:



The relevant passage is as follows:

"We were standing at this point when President John F. Kennedy was shot. The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot."

Obviously you'll have to pinpoint her exact position but you sound like you sound like you know exactly what you're doing.

[Charles Collins]

Hey Charles,

I don't know if this is any help but it concerns something Gloria Calvery mentioned on her 'Hoover Questionnaire'. Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves have put together an excellent case identifying this woman (arrow) as Gloria Calvery:



The relevant passage is as follows:

"We were standing at this point when President John F. Kennedy was shot. The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot."

Obviously you'll have to pinpoint her exact position but you sound like you sound like you know exactly what you're doing.

Thanks Dan, what makes Victoria Adams' account different than most is that she specifies that JFK was hidden from her view by the tree when she heard the first shot. And we can draw a straight line from the window she was watching from to the tree and extend that straight line on out to where it intersects with the path of the limo. Don Roberdeau's map shows the limo path with reference marks along it indicating the location of JFK at certain points in time (based on certain Zapruder film frame numbers). The window and the tree are stationary points that do not change and this gives us more precise information than most of the accounts. For example the Gloria Calvery account is less precise because "right in front of her" changes as she rotates her head to follow the limo as it passes by her position. (Notice that in the image that you provided that Gloria is facing towards the intersection of Houston and Elm, not perpendicular to the centerling of Elm Street.) There are several similar accounts by different witnesses that are not standing very close to each other. Howard Brennan gives us an account of when he heard the first shot in his affidavit dated 11/22/63 that also has two specific stationary points we can use in a similar fashion. So if we draw a straight line from where Brennan was sitting to the last [western most] window in the south wall of the TSBD, we are basically in the same area that Victoria Adams' account describes for the first shot in her account. Two independent accounts that have more precision than most accounts corroborate each other and they both are indicative of a first shot around the time of z-133. This is significant in my opinion.