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Author Topic: The Dale Myers Blog  (Read 16499 times)

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 12:27:31 AM »
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Mr. Elliott:
Brewer's WC testimony mentions " we were listening to the transistor...".
Who is we?
His testimony: February 1964.

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 12:27:31 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 01:42:20 AM »
He could give Statement 1:

I heard that the President was shot. This made me extra alert. So, when I saw a man act suspiciously and sneak first into my shoe store, as police cars with sirens approached, and then a couple of minutes later sneak into a theater, again, as police cars with sirens approached, I decided to check this out.

Or he could give Statement 2:

I heard that a police officer was shot. This made me extra alert. So, when I saw a man act suspiciously and sneak first into my shoe store, as police cars with sirens approached, and then a couple of minutes later sneak into a theater, again, as police cars with sirens approached, I decided to check this out.

I think it makes a great deal of difference. Seeing a guy who “looks funny” when you’ve heard that a policeman was just shot in Oak Cliff, is very different from seeing a guy “look funny” an hour after (and miles away from where) the president was shot.

But I agree with your overall point. Just because somebody says something that isn’t true, that doesn’t mean he is lying. I’ve been trying to get Mr. O’meara to understand that distinction.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 01:43:21 AM by John Iacoletti »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 02:22:03 AM »

Mr. Elliott:
Brewer's WC testimony mentions " we were listening to the transistor...".
Who is we?
His testimony: February 1964.

Yes. But let’s look at his statements made in chronological order. The earliest statements have to be considered the most reliable, although false memories can crop up very quickly.

Two weeks later:
December 6, 1963 Affidavit:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339626/m1/1/

No mention of “we” hearing the radio. Only “I”. Does say he heard the President had been shot. Also says he heard a police officer had been shot. This cannot be, but false memories can certainly develop in 2 weeks. Said he followed Oswald a bit out on the street. And Saw him duck into the theater.

Only problem: Remembering hearing the radio report of an officer being shot.



Four months later:
April 2, 1964 Warren Commission testimony.

https://www.jdtippit.com/brewer_nov.htm

Now, as is typical with memories, problems start to crop up:

He now refers to “we”, not “I”, heard on the radio, the news about the President and the police officer. Even so, he doesn’t say that “we” were there the whole time. “We” heard the reports.

“We listened to all the events”. What does that mean? All the events up to 1:10? All the events up to the time Oswald entered the store? All the events up to the time Oswald was arrested? All the events up to the time Ruby shot Oswald two days later? We can’t tell. It could be that if others where there, they soon left to hunt up a TV set while Mr. Brewer had to stay in the shop. There is no discussion about Mr. Brewer interacting with the “others”, asking what they thought of that strange man, asking them to come with him to the theater to check the exits. Asking them to step out of the store while he temporally locked up. So, I suspect if there were others there, they had left by the time Oswald showed up. It doesn’t make sense that Mr. Brewer would forget all about them and not interact with them in some way if they were still there.



33 years later:
November 25, 1996 interview.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235&search=two_men+from+IBM+JCB#relPageId=8&tab=page

Now all sorts of problems occur with his story.

33 years later he remembers not only listening to the radio by the station, KLIF. Happens to be the same station Julie Postal said she was listening to in her 1964 testimony.

And now, not only are there others, but there were two other men in the shop when Oswald showed up. They were friends who worked for IBM. They were in there to just in there just to kill time and lounge around. The President had just been shot, but instead of hunting up a TV set, which they could do but Mr. Brewer could not, they decided instead to lounge around and kill time. And again, he does not bring up any interaction with them except when prompted by the interviewer, he responds with “Oh yes, I think I said something. “Said something”. Not asking them to come with him to the theater to watch exits. Not asking them to step out of the store while he locked up. Just said “something” and didn’t interact with them again.

He walked up to the theater booth and said ‘Julie, did you sell a ticket?’. Julie. Julie worked a block away. But he knew her before November 22, 1963? I don’t think he mentioned that in any of his earlier statements. Now Mr. Brewer was 22 years old. I don’t see Julie Postal’s age, but in her Warren Commission testimony she said she graduated from high school in California and returned to Texas, and had been working at the Texas Theater for 11, 14 or 15 years. I don’t think it’s likely that Mr. Brewer was on a first name basis with Julie before November 22, 1963.

In addition, he remembered telling Butch Burroughs “Butch, come on with me’. Butch. I think it was even less likely that Mr. Brewer was on a first name basis with Butch Burroughs.

And not only did Mr. Brewer know “Julie” and “Butch” by there first names, he also knew Oswald. Oswald bought a two-eyelet, crepe-soled shoe, model 8110, size eight and a half, sometime before the assassination. Even thirty years later Mr. Brewer has an amazing memory for all his customers and their shoes. Oswald was very fastidious and meticulous. None of this was mentioned in 1963 or 1964 but by 1996 Mr. Brewer remembered a lot about this customer he met once and sold a pair of shoes to.



All this looks like a classic case of “False Memories”. The witness starts to incorporate information he learned later into his memory. He knows “Julie”. He knows “Butch”. He knows Oswald. Hell, he may remember selling shoes to Jack Ruby by now.

There is no reason for him to make up these lies. To say he was on a first name basis with “Julie”, with “Butch”. To say he sold a pair of shoes to Oswald.

A minor problem two weeks later. More problems four months later. A host of problems 33 years later. Classic signs of false memories cropping up over time.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:23:32 AM by Joe Elliott »

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 02:22:03 AM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 02:30:08 AM »

I think it makes a great deal of difference. Seeing a guy who “looks funny” when you’ve heard that a policeman was just shot in Oak Cliff, is very different from seeing a guy “look funny” an hour after (and miles away from where) the president was shot.

But I agree with your overall point. Just because somebody says something that isn’t true, that doesn’t mean he is lying. I’ve been trying to get Mr. O’meara to understand that distinction.

I think hearing:

          The President had been shot, 66 minutes earlier, 3 miles away.

Might carry as much weight, or even more weight, then hearing:

          A police officer had been shot 21 minutes earlier, half a mile away.

But it is, of course, a matter of opinion.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2020, 04:38:44 AM »
He walked up to the theater booth and said ‘Julie, did you sell a ticket?’. Julie. Julie worked a block away. But he knew her before November 22, 1963? I don’t think he mentioned that in any of his earlier statements. Now Mr. Brewer was 22 years old. I don’t see Julie Postal’s age, but in her Warren Commission testimony she said she graduated from high school in California and returned to Texas, and had been working at the Texas Theater for 11, 14 or 15 years. I don’t think it’s likely that Mr. Brewer was on a first name basis with Julie before November 22, 1963.

Just because they weren’t the same age? They worked just down the block from each other!

Since we’re doing “likely” arguments again, I do t think it’s “likely” that he would be so familiar toward somebody he didn’t know.

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2020, 04:38:44 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2020, 06:22:56 AM »
Yes. But let’s look at his statements made in chronological order. The earliest statements have to be considered the most reliable, although false memories can crop up very quickly.


Do you really want to play that card? I happy to see where it gets us, are you?

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2020, 07:00:19 AM »

Just because they weren’t the same age? They worked just down the block from each other!

Since we’re doing “likely” arguments again, I do t think it’s “likely” that he would be so familiar toward somebody he didn’t know.

Probability arguments definitely make sense. Certainly, in this case.

Mr. Brewer was about 7 years younger than Ms. Postal. Mr. Brewer was a tall handsome man with a steady job. It doesn’t sound too likely that they would get to know each other. If they were the same age, it would be more likely. And I get the feeling that Mr. Brewer would probably not get on a first name basis with Butch.

Mr. Brewer knew Julie and Butch. Knew both on a first name basis. Did the Butch act as the ‘chaperone’ for Johnny and Julie on their dates? Or was there something, how shall I say it, a little less conventional about the relationship among the three? To me this all sounds pretty unlikely.

It all boils down to this:

33-year-old memories are suspect.

33-year-old memories that it appears did not exist 2 weeks or 4 months after the event, but do appear by 33 years later, are very suspect.

And new 33-year-old memories that just popped up and sound fishy are very, very, suspect.


And in general, at lot of these new 33-year old memories that just popped up seem fishy.

Mr. Brewer was with two IBM employees. It was a Friday, 6 days before Thanksgiving, when I would think they would be at work but they were just hanging out at a shoe store, lounging around and killing time. Mr. Brewer remembers them being there but doesn’t remember any interaction with them. Asking them if they thought that young man was acting strange. Asking them to come with him to check out this suspicious man. Doesn’t even remember asking them to leave the store so he can lock up for a bit and check out this mystery at the theater.

And he suddenly, years later, remembers that he did see Oswald before. That he sold Oswald a pair of shoes. He now even remembers exactly the model numbers of the shoes. Yeah.

33-year-old memories that just popped up need to seem plausible to be accepted as possibly real memories and not false memories that even honest people will develop over time. These memories do not seem real. There is no obvious reason why they should be lies. None of these memories got him an extra $ 20,000 or do anything for him. They sound like false memories.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2020, 03:45:41 PM »
Probability arguments definitely make sense. Certainly, in this case.

Sure they do. To you. You love “probability arguments” — aka conjecture.

Quote
Mr. Brewer knew Julie and Butch. Knew both on a first name basis. Did the Butch act as the ‘chaperone’ for Johnny and Julie on their dates? Or was there something, how shall I say it, a little less conventional about the relationship among the three? To me this all sounds pretty unlikely.

 ::) Nobody claimed they dated.


Quote
Mr. Brewer was with two IBM employees. It was a Friday, 6 days before Thanksgiving, when I would think they would be at work but they were just hanging out at a shoe store, lounging around and killing time.

I agree the “IBM men” hanging out at a shoe store is weird.

Quote
Mr. Brewer remembers them being there but doesn’t remember any interaction with them. Asking them if they thought that young man was acting strange. Asking them to come with him to check out this suspicious man. Doesn’t even remember asking them to leave the store so he can lock up for a bit and check out this mystery at the theater.

You didn’t read the interview, did you?

They locked up for him while he was gone. Which is even weirder.

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Re: The Dale Myers Blog
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2020, 03:45:41 PM »