My Re-Evaluation of Johnny Brewer’s Initial Report of December 6, 1963

[Joe Elliott]

WBAP and WFAA were different radio stations. They shared broadcast frequencies, but why do you assume they shared announcers?

WBAP and WFAA did not share the same announcers. They have a totally different set of announcers. But on both stations, an announcer working for that station may, from time to time, say that this is “NBC News” and at other times “ABC News”. So, it would be easy for someone, like Officer Sabastian, to recognize a voice over the radio and associate it with “NBC News”.

There are “WFAA News” reports on the so-called “WBAP” broadcast tape during the relevant time.

Where on the recording is the WBAP 820 AM broadcasting news from WFAA, during 1:15 through 1:40 CST? Did WBAP broadcast all the reports that WFAA was broadcasting?

[Joe Elliott]

The only problem is that there is no evidence whatsoever for such a report on commercial radio around 1.25pm and the timeline (if the official narrative is correct) makes it physically impossible for such a broadcast to be made within 3 minutes after Tippit being declared DOA at 1.22.

There is evidence. Officer Sabastian’s recorded comments on the Dictabelt. What you mean to say, is to make the claim, that it was impossible for him to hear such a broadcast.

But this is wrong. It is as simple as a radio station monitoring the police frequencies, which we know they did, to learn as soon as the dispatcher did, that a Dallas officer was shot.

What "DOA report" may have been false yet accurate? I'm not even sure where you are getting this from, as there wasn't a DOA report. In fact there is no record of any verbal report and the first document that mentions Tippit's DOA is a permission for an autopsy which gives the time of DOA at 1.15 pm.

What I am saying is that someone may have said a Dallas police officer was dead. When this message was relayed, it could have been garbled to “Officer killed” to “Officer DOA”.

Messages get garbled all the time. It seems to have happened at Dealey Plaza. Possibility someone related that they saw a Secret Service officer bravely rush toward the limousine, even though he may have gotten killed. This could get garbled to a report that a Secret Service agent was killed in Dealey Plaza. The inaccuracy of these early reports should not cause one to reject an entire report, that the report of the President, the Governor and the killing of a Secret Service agent, had nothing to do with the shooting at Dealey Plaza, because it included a statement about the death of a Secret Service agent.

So, I repeat, if the official narrative is correct, Tippit was declared at Methodist Hospital at 1.22 pm. There is no physical way that his DOA could be reported on the air by a commercial station at 1.25 pm, when the DPD dispatcher, who was in direct radio contact with the officers at Methodist Hospital, didn't even confirm the DOA until 1.28 pm.

As I said, this could just be a garbled report. Like the report of a Secret Service agent being killed.

And it’s possible, it was an accurate report. No way for the radio stations to know that Officer Tippit was DOA? No reporter could have been at large, looking for a story, and see and follow an ambulance, on the off chance this may lead to a scoop? No chance a radio station wouldn’t start monitoring the radio frequencies of the ambulances to see if they can get an update on the condition of the officer?

No that's not false. Sabastian did not say he heard from NBC News, he said "NBC News is reporting DOA". There also is no evidence that he heard that news in his car, just like there is no proof that there actually was a radio transmission. You just assume he did and it's a circular argument.

He was broadcasting from his car. So, he likely heard it from his car. But it doesn’t matter if he heard a radio from his car, or heard a radio while he briefly parked and got out of his car. He could, and likely did, overhear a somebody else’s radio. That is the most likely way he would overhear a message he thought was from “NBC News”, because I doubt he would have been listening to his own radio while on duty.

As for his voice being on the dictabelt, yes he could only broadcast from his patrol car, but that doesn't mean he was in it when he heard about the DOA of an officer. In fact, he could have been one of the officers at the carpark where the jacket was found.

No. at 1:25 2 to 3 minutes before his “Officer DOA” message, he reported he was at Forest and Central, several miles from Dealey Plaza and the Oak Cliff area.

[Martin Weidmann]

There is evidence. Officer Sabastian’s recorded comments on the Dictabelt. What you mean to say, is to make the claim, that it was impossible for him to hear such a broadcast.

But this is wrong. It is as simple as a radio station monitoring the police frequencies, which we know they did, to learn as soon as the dispatcher did, that a Dallas officer was shot.

We seem to be going around in circles. You seem to be desperate to cling to the notion that Sabastian heard the DOA on the radio and there simply isn't any evidence for that. "NBC news is reporting..." does not automatically mean he is refering to a radio broadcast.

And an officer being shot is not the same as an officer being DOA. The first confirmation of the DOA was put out by the dispatcher on channel 2 at 1.28, which is 3 minutes after Sabastian asked the dispatcher about the DOA. Sabastian's question, btw, was the first mention of DOA on channel one, so that couldn't have been the source for a radio report either.

What I am saying is that someone may have said a Dallas police officer was dead. When this message was relayed, it could have been garbled to “Officer killed” to “Officer DOA”.

More speculation. Someone? Who is someone? It wasn't anybody on the police radio because those messages came after the alleged radio broadcast that Sabastian is supposed to have heard. So, even if somebody at Methodist Hospital said a police officer was dead, how was it relayed, when there wasn't even a reporter there to do the relaying?

And considering that Tippit, according to the official narrative, was declared DOA at around 1.22 there were only 3 minutes left for a broadcast to take place so that Sabastian could hear it. Highly unlikely!

Messages get garbled all the time. It seems to have happened at Dealey Plaza. Possibility someone related that they saw a Secret Service officer bravely rush toward the limousine, even though he may have gotten killed. This could get garbled to a report that a Secret Service agent was killed in Dealey Plaza. The inaccuracy of these early reports should not cause one to reject an entire report, that the report of the President, the Governor and the killing of a Secret Service agent, had nothing to do with the shooting at Dealey Plaza, because it included a statement about the death of a Secret Service agent.

As I said, this could just be a garbled report. Like the report of a Secret Service agent being killed.

None of this has anything to do with Tippit being shot....

And it’s possible, it was an accurate report. No way for the radio stations to know that Officer Tippit was DOA? No reporter could have been at large, looking for a story, and see and follow an ambulance, on the off chance this may lead to a scoop? No chance a radio station wouldn’t start monitoring the radio frequencies of the ambulances to see if they can get an update on the condition of the officer?

No way for the radio stations to know that Officer Tippit was DOA?

Between 1.22 and 1.25? No... how could they know?

No reporter could have been at large, looking for a story, and see and follow an ambulance, on the off chance this may lead to a scoop?

Could have? Sure... but with the President and the Governor having been shot, those reporters had something else on their mind, don't you think? What reporter, who knows Kennedy and Connally were shot at Dealey Plaza and that they are now at Parkland Hospital would come up with the bright idea to take a drive in a residential area like Oak Cliff to search for a story? The answer is none!

Besides, there wasn't a scoop. No reporter ever filed a report of having been at Methodist Hospital when Tippit was declared DOA.... So much for your "could have"!

He was broadcasting from his car. So, he likely heard it from his car. But it doesn’t matter if he heard a radio from his car, or heard a radio while he briefly parked and got out of his car. He could, and likely did, overhear a somebody else’s radio. That is the most likely way he would overhear a message he thought was from “NBC News”, because I doubt he would have been listening to his own radio while on duty.

That's an awful lot of "likely" with nothing to support it? Just prior his dispatcher had directed him to 400 East Jefferson, where the pursuit of the killer was going on. Do you really think Sabastian figured it would be a good idea to have a commercial radio station playing in the car or could it be he needed to focus on what was coming over the DPD radio?

He could, and likely did, overhear a somebody else’s radio.

I have noticed this before about you. Once you get something in your head, like this "Sabastian heard it on the radio" thing, there is nothing anybody can say to you to make you even think about alternatives. You just keep on twisting and turning to hold on to a notion which at best is nothing more than speculation on your part.

No. at 1:25 2 to 3 minutes before his “Officer DOA” message, he reported he was at Forest and Central, several miles from Dealey Plaza and the Oak Cliff area.

Yeah right.... that was (according to the transcripts) at 1.25 and then, two minutes later, came this;

Dispatcher   602.       
211 & 224 (Ptm. R. Hawkins and Ptm. L.D. Wilson)   211 (probably 111) and 224, working Oak Cliff.       
Dispatcher   10-4.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker)   Did someone find a jacket?       
Dispatcher   No (?), 85.       
79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin)   79 clear, downtown.       
Dispatcher   Clear.       
19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)   19.       
Dispatcher   19.       
19 One of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he's in this block, the 400 block of East Jefferson behind this service station. Would you give me some more squads over here?       
79 (Ptm. B.N. Arglin)   79 en route.       
        . . . 19/90/car 2.       
412 (CID)   412 en route.       
        . . . 400 East Jefferson.       
Dispatcher   10-4, 412.       

75 (Ptm. E.G. Sabastian)   Go ahead.       
Dispatcher   400 East Jefferson.       
75   We're almost there.       

Dispatcher   19, where did the officer go?       
550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill)   550/2.       
19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)   I saw some squads going towards Methodist real fast. Imagine that's where he is.       

75 (Ptm. E.G. Sabastian)   75.       
Dispatcher   400 East Jefferson. Report in that vicinity.       
75   Code 2.

What part of "we're almost there" did you not understand? And come to think of it... who is the "we" in "we're"?

[John Tonkovich]

So now that we're all in agreement that Sebastian was mistaken, is there any evidence at all that Brewer heard a radio report of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff prior to Oswald's arrest?

No.
Brewer's story makes no sense. He heard nothing on the radio.

[Joe Elliott]

I said earlier that you would continue to twist and turn the facts as much as possible to keep your own theory (which you always consider to be correct) alive. And you have just proven me to be rightae know Officer Sabastian mentioned the officer" when in fact he did not mention the officer and we know no such thing. All we have is your claim that he asked "That the officer" when in fact the transcript has a questionmark behind his callsign 75.

As I mentioned before, the person who made this transcript did a poor, and/or a rushed job. Yes, there is a question mark with the “75”, as follows:

75                     75.
Dispatcher      75.
75                     NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher      That’s correct.
75 (?)               That the officer?
Dispatcher      Yes.

But immediately below that we have on the transcript:

87 (?) (Ptm. R. C. Nelson)       87.

Really, there is a question about the “87” statement being used by Officer Nelson? Who else would be identifying themselves as Officer Nelson over the radio?

The transcript leaves out questions marks when there are serious reasons why the identity of the caller seems to be in error. And puts in questions marks when there should be no doubt as to who is calling in.

You are just trying to win your argument by exhausting the people you talk to, by constantly throwing out new "possibillities", no matter how unlikely, instead of looking honestly at the available information.

The facts are simple. There was no radio broadcast about Tippit being DOA at 1.25. No such recording has ever surfaced, no reporter has ever come forward to take credit for it. It doesn't matter if something was garbled or not, because it never made it on air.

But many stations had not start recording their broadcasts until after 1:25. KBOX, for instance, did not start recording until 1:35, and within the first minute, by 1:36, reported

“We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland hospital.”

Yes. It has the usual inaccuracies of early initial reports. A detective, not an ordinary police officer was killed. DOA at Parkland when he was taken to Methodist Hospital. And probably too early for them to know whether he was DOA or not. Just like the other early errors, just such as the President being reported DOA or a Secret Service agent killed.

And for all we know, there were earlier reports. If the recording had started at 1:30 CST, we might have a 1:31 CST announcement about the death of a detective.

The claim that a broadcast about Tippit could have taken place based on "nothing more than the police radio broadcasts which the media monitored" fails simply because there were no such police radio broadcasts prior to Sabastian asking the dispatcher about the DOA reported by NBC News.

No. Before 1:27 there were reports on the death of a police officer being broadcasted over the police radio.

1:16 CST
Citizen               There’s been a shooting out here.
. . .
Citizen               Between Marsalis and Beckley. It’s a police officer. Somebody shot him. What – what’s . . . 404 Tenth Street
. . .
Dispatcher        Attention. Signal 19 (unconscious person), police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.

1:19 CST
Citizen               Pardon, from out hear on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he’s dead.
Dispatcher       10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio. Remain off the radio now.


By 1:19 CST, a radio station could broadcast the news about the death of a police officer, with at least as much reliable information as they thought they had when they were reporting the death of a Secret Service agent.

Your unwillingness to accept the reality that's staring you in the face makes it superfluous for anybody to confront you with the actual facts.

You should talk. “. . . no such police radio broadcasts prior to Sabastian asking the dispatcher about the DOA reported by NBC News”. Right.

If you desperately want to believe that Johnny Brewer heard a report on the radio about an officer being shot before he started following the man to the Texas Theater, then have at it.... believe it as much as you like, but don't pretend there is any evidence for it because there clearly isn't and your Sabastian quote "NBC News is reporting DOA" doesn't alter that one bit.

No. I am not desperate. You’re the one that is desperate. If it was ever proven that there was no such broadcast, which we can’t because we have the KBOX broadcast at 1:36. But as I was saying, if it was ever proven that the was no such broadcast. That officer Sabastian, or some unknown officer thought he heard such a broadcast about the death of a police officer, but was mistaken, it wouldn’t matter one bit. Mr. Brewer would just be one more witness who got his facts jumbled up:

Officer DOA at Parkland.
President Kennedy was DOA.
A Secret Service agent was killed at Dealey Plaza.
It was a Dallas detective that was killed.

Just a small subset of the false statements made by people. We have no reason to suppose that any of these false reports were lies. And we would have no reason that a false statement, made two weeks later by Mr. Brewer was a lie, when it would be so easy to jumble up in his memory when he heard what. We don’t even have any reason to think that this statement was false, let alone a lie.

[Martin Weidmann]

As I mentioned before, the person who made this transcript did a poor, and/or a rushed job. Yes, there is a question mark with the “75”, as follows:

75                     75.
Dispatcher      75.
75                     NBC News is reporting DOA.
Dispatcher      That’s correct.
75 (?)               That the officer?
Dispatcher      Yes.

But immediately below that we have on the transcript:

87 (?) (Ptm. R. C. Nelson)       87.

Really, there is a question about the “87” statement being used by Officer Nelson? Who else would be identifying themselves as Officer Nelson over the radio?

The transcript leaves out questions marks when there are serious reasons why the identity of the caller seems to be in error. And puts in questions marks when there should be no doubt as to who is calling in.



But many stations had not start recording their broadcasts until after 1:25. KBOX, for instance, did not start recording until 1:35, and within the first minute, by 1:36, reported

“We also have one Dallas detective reported dead on arrival at Parkland hospital.”

Yes. It has the usual inaccuracies of early initial reports. A detective, not an ordinary police officer was killed. DOA at Parkland when he was taken to Methodist Hospital. And probably too early for them to know whether he was DOA or not. Just like the other early errors, just such as the President being reported DOA or a Secret Service agent killed.

And for all we know, there were earlier reports. If the recording had started at 1:30 CST, we might have a 1:31 CST announcement about the death of a detective.



No. Before 1:27 there were reports on the death of a police officer being broadcasted over the police radio.

1:16 CST
Citizen               There’s been a shooting out here.
. . .
Citizen               Between Marsalis and Beckley. It’s a police officer. Somebody shot him. What – what’s . . . 404 Tenth Street
. . .
Dispatcher        Attention. Signal 19 (unconscious person), police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.

1:19 CST
Citizen               Pardon, from out hear on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he’s dead.
Dispatcher       10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio. Remain off the radio now.


By 1:19 CST, a radio station could broadcast the news about the death of a police officer, with at least as much reliable information as they thought they had when they were reporting the death of a Secret Service agent.



You should talk. “. . . no such police radio broadcasts prior to Sabastian asking the dispatcher about the DOA reported by NBC News”. Right.



No. I am not desperate. You’re the one that is desperate. If it was ever proven that there was no such broadcast, which we can’t because we have the KBOX broadcast at 1:36. But as I was saying, if it was ever proven that the was no such broadcast. That officer Sabastian, or some unknown officer thought he heard such a broadcast about the death of a police officer, but was mistaken, it wouldn’t matter one bit. Mr. Brewer would just be one more witness who got his facts jumbled up:

Officer DOA at Parkland.
President Kennedy was DOA.
A Secret Service agent was killed at Dealey Plaza.
It was a Dallas detective that was killed.

Just a small subset of the false statements made by people. We have no reason to suppose that any of these false reports were lies. And we would have no reason that a false statement, made two weeks later by Mr. Brewer was a lie, when it would be so easy to jumble up in his memory when he heard what. We don’t even have any reason to think that this statement was false, let alone a lie.

So, now you are jumping back to this thread again? Why? Did you exhaust all your options on the other thread and now want to give it another go here?

Why did you take quotes from my reply in the other thread and post them here, without saying so? Did you hope to confuse the readers who obviously will not find my actual reply in this thread?

And even more importantly, why did you edit part of one of the quotes?

Well, whatever the answer, I'm not playing your game anymore. You can repeat stuff that has already been debunked as much as you like. Have fun with it.

If it was ever proven that there was no such broadcast

This is just about the dumbest thing to say, yet it is so typical for you. A negative can not be proven nor does it need to be. If you claim there was a radio broadcast than you need to prove it..... but you can't. That's been your problem all along and that's why you keep on twisting and turning without even noticing that you are not fooling anybody.

The most likely scenario of what happened is that Brewer heard the report on the radio that Kennedy was dead and that morphed later into that he heard a report on the radio about Tippit being DOA.

Have fun twisting and turning some more .....

[John Iacoletti]

But many stations had not start recording their broadcasts until after 1:25. KBOX, for instance, did not start recording until 1:35, and within the first minute, by 1:36, reported

Why do you keep making this assertion?  KBOX was recording during the motorcade.  The tapes went "missing".

By 1:19 CST, a radio station could broadcast the news about the death of a police officer,

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

But as I was saying, if it was ever proven that the was no such broadcast. That officer Sabastian, or some unknown officer thought he heard such a broadcast about the death of a police officer, but was mistaken, it wouldn’t matter one bit. Mr. Brewer would just be one more witness who got his facts jumbled up:

 

[John Tonkovich]

So, now you are jumping back to this thread again? Why? Did you exhaust all your options on the other thread and now want to give it another go here?

Why did you take quotes from my reply in the other thread and post them here, without saying so? Did you hope to confuse the readers who obviously will not find my actual reply in this thread?

And even more importantly, why did you edit part of one of the quotes?

Well, whatever the answer, I'm not playing your game anymore. You can repeat stuff that has already been debunked as much as you like. Have fun with it.

If it was ever proven that there was no such broadcast

This is just about the dumbest thing to say, yet it is so typical for you. A negative can not be proven nor does it need to be. If you claim there was a radio broadcast than you need to prove it..... but you can't. That's been your problem all along and that's why you keep on twisting and turning without even noticing that you are not fooling anybody.

The most likely scenario of what happened is that Brewer heard the report on the radio that Kennedy was dead and that morphed later into that he heard a report on the radio about Tippit being DOA.

Have fun twisting and turning some more .....

Mr Elliott  wants someone to " prove a negative"?
Back to Logic 101 class for you sir.