Unsung Heroes

[Joe Elliott]

Unsung Heroes for the Lone Nut Narrative :

- Jack Ruby
- J Edgar Hoover
- Allen Dulles
- Gerald Ford
- Arlen Spector
- Dan Rather

Actually, only Gerald Ford and Arlen Specter make my list as, not heroes, but men who made a positive contribution to this case.

I think the other LNers on the board would agree with who I list and who I don’t.

[Martin Weidmann]

I now agree with you. I was perplexed that the recordings would start in mid broadcast, like the old tape ran out and a new one put in. It is now clear to me that in general, the local radio stations were not recording anything when they heard about the assassination, and while concentrating on getting the news and broadcasting it, took up to an hour or more to setup and start recording the broadcast. I now believe, so far as I know, that no tape, once made, was lost. But it is also clear, that in many cases, no recording was made during that first hour.

It is now clear to me that in general, the local radio stations were not recording anything when they heard about the assassination

Pray tell, just how did that become clear to you?

I was perplexed that the recordings would start in mid broadcast, like the old tape ran out and a new one put in.

Which only tells me that you don't really understand how an output recording system used to work, back then. You seem to be under the impression that somebody had to change tapes ever so often, when in fact the system used a big real tape that was slowed down so it could record a full 24 hour output on one tape. There normally were two machines, with the second one starting a minute or so before the tape on the first machine ran out.

I doubt a police officer would overhear and reporter talking and call dispatch to report that “NBC News is reporting DOA.” The fact that he was using the radio means, to me, that he wasn’t at police headquarters but was patrolling in his vehicle. Officer E. G. Sabastian isn’t going overhear a reporter at headquarters, walk past the dispatch office, go the garage, get in his squad car, get on his radio and report to dispatch that “NBC News is reporting DOA.”

Why would the reporter that Sabsatian possibly overheard be at DPD headquarters? Cops on the street meet people and overhear conversations all the time. Sabastian may well have known the reporter to be a NBC News employee, and when he heard him say the officer was DOA he simply got curious and wanted to get confirmation by calling it in. Since names of people were/are not normally broadcast on police radio, he may well have gotten around that by saying "NBC News is reporting..."

“NBC News is reporting DOA” means hearing a media broadcast, either over TV or radio. And we know it wasn’t TV. And he wouldn’t have been watching TV. And likely based on the voice of an announcer who reported for NBC, or at least often reported for NBC, but sometimes ABC. Like an announcer for either WBAP or WFAA. It would not have been WBAP but it might have been WFAA.

“NBC News is reporting DOA” means hearing a media broadcast, either over TV or radio.

No it doesn't. Not necessarily anyway. Yesterday on CNN I heard a reporter say "tomorrow the New York Times is reporting....."

By the way, was E. G. Sabastain assigned to chat up reporters and report back to dispatch what they were talking about?

No.

So what? Was Victoria Adams a police officer? Yet she still overheard a message on the DPD radio. Regardless of what Sabastian's assignment was, that doesn't preclude that he overheard somebody saying a fellow officer was DOA and wanted to check with the DPD dispatcher if that was true.

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

1:25
75 (Ptm. E. G. Sabastian)      75 is at Forest and Central

which I interpret as Officer Sabastian is in his patrol car at the intersection of Forest Lane and North Central Expressway, several miles north of Dealey Plaza and police headquarters and not likely to encounter any reporters. And reports from “NBC News” has to be coming in over the radio.

You can interpret that as much as you like, but it is meaningless. If he had heard a report on the radio he would have known that it was Tippit who was DOA, but he clearly did not know that because he asked the dispatcher "That the officer".

Another point of interest is this. Let's say you're right and Sabastian did hear it on the radio at 1.25 or just before that. According to the official narrative, Tippit was allegedly shot at 1.14/1.15 and picked up by an ambulance at 1.18. The drive to Methodist Hospital from 10th/Patton is about 4 minutes, which puts the arrival of the ambulance at 1.22. There were no reporters with the ambulance, only Davenport's police car which started following the ambulance en route. Back in those days reporters had to call in stories by phone, so for the story to be broadcast at no later than 1.25, there were only three minutes, after the ambulance arrival, available for a reporter to get to Methodist Hospital, talk to a doctor, find a phone and call it in and get the story on the air..... Not very likely...

Now, if Tippit was really shot at around 1.06 or 1.07 it would be a different matter, but I don't think you want to be having that discussion....

[Joe Elliott]

It is now clear to me that in general, the local radio stations were not recording anything when they heard about the assassination

Pray tell, just how did that become clear to you?

My at least two stations, KBOX and WFAA, starting there recording at some random moment, an hour or so after the news broke about the assassination.

If the radio stations were all recording their broadcasts, why are we missing so much of the first hour with multiple stations?

[Joe Elliott]

Why would the reporter that Sabsatian possibly overheard be at DPD headquarters? Cops on the street meet people and overhear conversations all the time. Sabastian may well have known the reporter to be a NBC News employee, and when he heard him say the officer was DOA he simply got curious and wanted to get confirmation by calling it in. Since names of people were/are not normally broadcast on police radio, he may well have gotten around that by saying "NBC News is reporting..."

“NBC News is reporting DOA” means hearing a media broadcast, either over TV or radio.

For every person who says something like “NBC News is reporting . . .” and says this because of an NBC reporter that they just happened to talk to, there are thousands who would say this because of what they heard on TV or over the radio. Yes, it’s possible that a reporter wearing a badge saying “NBC News” stopped officer Sabastian in his squad car, miles from Dealey Plaza, and told him, “There is something I need to tell you. A police officer has been reported DOA.” But it is not likely.

[Martin Weidmann]

My at least two stations, KBOX and WFAA, starting there recording at some random moment, an hour or so after the news broke about the assassination.

If the radio stations were all recording their broadcasts, why are we missing so much of the first hour with multiple stations?

My at least two stations, KBOX and WFAA, starting there recording at some random moment, an hour or so after the news broke about the assassination.

This is a mere assumption on your part, based on the fact that you have no earlier recordings. It's does not prove that "the local radio stations were not recording anything when they heard about the assassination"

If the radio stations were all recording their broadcasts, why are we missing so much of the first hour with multiple stations?


That's a good question for which I have no answer. I can only speculate about what could have happened to those tapes. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. What I do find somewhat strange is that two stations would start taping about an hour after the news broke. That, to me, is too much of a coincidence. Why, if they weren't taping already, would they wait an entire hour?

[Martin Weidmann]

For every person who says something like “NBC News is reporting . . .” and says this because of an NBC reporter that they just happened to talk to, there are thousands who would say this because of what they heard on TV or over the radio. Yes, it’s possible that a reporter wearing a badge saying “NBC News” stopped officer Sabastian in his squad car, miles from Dealey Plaza, and told him, “There is something I need to tell you. A police officer has been reported DOA.” But it is not likely.

Yes, it’s possible that a reporter wearing a badge saying “NBC News” stopped officer Sabastian in his squad car, miles from Dealey Plaza, and told him, “There is something I need to tell you. A police officer has been reported DOA.”

Here you go again... repeating the same stuff that has already been proven incorrect in the other thread. Perhaps that's why you jumped to this thread again. Sabastian wasn't miles from Dealey Plaza. At around 1.25 he was near 400 Jefferson East in Oak Cliff, which is where the dispatcher told him to go after a jacket was found at a parking lot there.

Nobody stopped Sabastian in his patrol car. That's just BS. Far more likely is that Sabastian arrived at 400 Jefferson East and overheard somebody say that a cop was DOA, and possibly that they heard it on NBC News even though we know that couldn't have been the case, so he quickly asked the dispatcher.

Your desperation to cling to the notion of a radio broadcast about Tippit being shot or killed at 1.25 is getting tiresome. In the other thread it has already been explained to you that, if the official narrative is true, Tippit was declared dead at Methodist Hospital at 1.22. Back in those days there were no live links. All stories had to be called in by phone. There simply is no way that any radio station could have put out a broadcast about Tippit at 1.25. And no such broadcast has ever surfaced.

[Joe Elliott]

Yes, it’s possible that a reporter wearing a badge saying “NBC News” stopped officer Sabastian in his squad car, miles from Dealey Plaza, and told him, “There is something I need to tell you. A police officer has been reported DOA.”

Here you go again... repeating the same stuff that has already been proven incorrect in the other thread. Perhaps that's why you jumped to this thread again, by Sabastian wasn't miles from Dealey Plaza. At around 1.25 he was near 400 Jefferson East in Oak Cliff, which is where the dispatcher told him to go after a jacket was found at a parking lot there.

I urge any reader to go check the transcript of the Dictabelt which records the what the Police Dispatcher and the other Dallas Police officers were saying over the radio in real time.

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

First, I don’t think this transcript is totally accurate. It is difficult to tell which officer is talking. I believe that sometimes, when the person wrote the transcript, they guess who is talking, but sometimes guess wrong.

For instance:

At 1:25
75 (Ptm. E. G. Sabastian)     75 is at Forest and Central.

At 1:26
75 (Ptm. E. G. Sabastian)     Go ahead.
Dispatcher                             400 East Jefferson.
75                                            We’re almost there.

Now, according to Google maps, by the fastest route, the distance between:
      The intersection of Forest Lane and Central Expressway
And:
     400 E Jefferson Blvd.
is 13 miles.

So, if we take the transcript at face value, Officer Sabastian travelled 13 miles in one minute.

The logical conclusion? One of these statements is in error. Either the report of Officer Sabastian being at Forest and Central at 1:25, or the report of Officer Sabastian being almost at 400 E. Jefferson Blvd. at 1:26. I would say the 1:25 statement is accurate, the 1:26 statement is not, and was actually made by a different officer who was in the area of 400 East Jefferson.

Why is this logical? Why not consider the 1:25 statement to be the one possibly in error? That it was made by some other officer, not Officer Sabastian? Because the 1:25 statement explicitly identifies him. “75 is at Forest and Central.” No other officer would be saying that. In contrast, the 1:26 transmission, the officer does not identify himself. The transmission just says on the recording “Go ahead . . . We’re almost there.” That could have been made by any officer. By which I logically deduce, was not Officer Sabastian, because he could not have travelled 13 miles in one minute.

So, while the transcript says this statement “We’re almost there.” Was made by Officer Sabastian, there is nothing in the recording that identifies who said it.

Now a few lines later, the Dispatcher orders Officer Sabastian to 400 East Jefferson and Officer Sabastian (I believe) acknowledges:

75                    75.
Dispatcher     400 East Jefferson. Report in that vicinity.
75                    Code 2.
Dispatcher      Yes.

Now, in these statements, 75 (Sabastian) reports in to the Dispatcher. The Dispatcher says to go to 400 East Jefferson and report in when your near there and Officer Sabastian says “Code 2”, that is, I’m on my way now”. Code 2 does not mean “I’m already in the vicinity”. So, we know from the transmission from 1:25, which we know was from Officer Sabastian, that he is still 13 miles away.

So, at 1:28, when Officer Sabastian reports “NBC News is reporting DOA. . . . That the officer?”, he’s not in Dealey Plaza, he’s not at 400 East Jefferson, he is still miles from both locations. So he did not get this message directly from an NBC reporter, he could only have gotten it another way, over the commercial radio.



And as a side note, it should be mentioned that you are not being logically consistent:

1.   You say Officer Sabastian was at 400 East Jefferson by 1:28 where he could have learned from an NBC reporter about an officer being killed. And 400 East Jefferson is just a few blocks form the site Officer Tippit was killed at.

2.   You also say that the media could not have known about Officer being DOA, “Dead on Arrival”. But if NBC News was in that area that soon, they could have found out where the ambulance was headed and went there themselves and learned that the officer was “DOA”.

So, which is it? Was the media in the vicinity of the Tippit murder scene very early or not? You can’t have it both ways.

[Martin Weidmann]

I urge any reader to go check the transcript of the Dictabelt which records the what the Police Dispatcher and the other Dallas Police officers were saying over the radio in real time.

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

First, I don’t think this transcript is totally accurate. It is difficult to tell which officer is talking. I believe that sometimes, when the person wrote the transcript, they guess who is talking, but sometimes guess wrong.

For instance:

At 1:25
75 (Ptm. E. G. Sabastian)     75 is at Forest and Central.

At 1:26
75 (Ptm. E. G. Sabastian)     Go ahead.
Dispatcher                             400 East Jefferson.
75                                            We’re almost there.

Now, according to Google maps, by the fastest route, the distance between:
      The intersection of Forest Lane and Central Expressway
And:
     400 E Jefferson Blvd.
is 13 miles.

So, if we take the transcript at face value, Officer Sabastian travelled 13 miles in one minute.

The logical conclusion? One of these statements is in error. Either the report of Officer Sabastian being at Forest and Central at 1:25, or the report of Officer Sabastian being almost at 400 E. Jefferson Blvd. at 1:26. I would say the 1:25 statement is accurate, the 1:26 statement is not, and was actually made by a different officer who was in the area of 400 East Jefferson.

Why is this logical? Why not consider the 1:25 statement to be the one possibly in error? That it was made by some other officer, not Officer Sabastian? Because the 1:25 statement explicitly identifies him. “75 is at Forest and Central.” No other officer would be saying that. In contrast, the 1:26 transmission, the officer does not identify himself. The transmission just says on the recording “Go ahead . . . We’re almost there.” That could have been made by any officer. By which I logically deduce, was not Officer Sabastian, because he could not have travelled 13 miles in one minute.

So, while the transcript says this statement “We’re almost there.” Was made by Officer Sabastian, there is nothing in the recording that identifies who said it.

Now a few lines later, the Dispatcher orders Officer Sabastian to 400 East Jefferson and Officer Sabastian (I believe) acknowledges:

75                    75.
Dispatcher     400 East Jefferson. Report in that vicinity.
75                    Code 2.
Dispatcher      Yes.

Now, in these statements, 75 (Sabastian) reports in to the Dispatcher. The Dispatcher says to go to 400 East Jefferson and report in when your near there and Officer Sabastian says “Code 2”, that is, I’m on my way now”. Code 2 does not mean “I’m already in the vicinity”. So, we know from the transmission from 1:25, which we know was from Officer Sabastian, that he is still 13 miles away.

So, at 1:28, when Officer Sabastian reports “NBC News is reporting DOA. . . . That the officer?”, he’s not in Dealey Plaza, he’s not at 400 East Jefferson, he is still miles from both locations. So he did not get this message directly from an NBC reporter, he could only have gotten it another way, over the commercial radio.

And as a side note, it should be mentioned that you are not being logically consistent:

1.   You say Officer Sabastian was at 400 East Jefferson by 1:28 where he could have learned from an NBC reporter about an officer being killed. And 400 East Jefferson is just a few blocks form the site Officer Tippit was killed at.

2.   You also say that the media could not have known about Officer being DOA, “Dead on Arrival”. But if NBC News was in that area that soon, they could have found out where the ambulance was headed and went there themselves and learned that the officer was “DOA”.

So, which is it? Was the media in the vicinity of the Tippit murder scene very early or not? You can’t have it both ways.

This is so much self-serving mumbo jumbo that I don't even know where to begin.

So why don't I start with inconsistancy;

When this message comes over the radio;

At 1:26
75 (Ptm. E. G. Sabastian)     Go ahead.
Dispatcher                             400 East Jefferson.
75                                            We’re almost there.

the transcript somehow likely isn't correct, because the dispatcher, when he said "400 East Jefferson" could have been talking to anybody except Sabastian, right?

Yet only a few lines later this comes over the radio;

75                    75.
Dispatcher     400 East Jefferson. Report in that vicinity.
75                    Code 2.
Dispatcher      Yes.

and now you claim the dispatcher is telling Sabastian (75) to go to..... wait for it.... the same location he said previously! Go figure!

What is really happening here of course is that the dispatcher told Sabastian the first time to go to 400 Jefferson and in the second call reminded him to report when he's in the vicinity. To argue that the first call isn't correct and the second one is, is simply disingenuous. Sabastian was probably racing down the Central Expressway with sirens blazing. "We're almost there" isn't precise and simply could have been his way of saying "we're en route", but whatever it's meaning, he responded to the dispatcher telling him where to go and that was 400 Jefferson!

This alone also blows completely out of the water your crazy notion that the "we're almost there" message wasn't correct because Sabastian could not have covered 13 miles in 1 minute. Of course he couldn't and didn't. When he said "we’re almost there" he was already on his way and in the second call he basically confirms that he will call in when he gets there, meaning he is still en route at that moment.

And how in the world do you know what "code 2" means? The answer is that you don't. You're just guessing and saying something that fits your narrative.

All this is merely a silly attempt to keep alive the illusion that there was a radio broadcast at 1.25 pm (which has never surfaced and nobody has ever heard) and Sabastian (as well as Brewer, because that's what this is really about) could have heard it.

So, let's talk some more about inconsistancy; in the other thread (about Brewer) you agreed with me that it was unlikely that Sabastian would have a commercial radio station on while in his patrol car racing down to 400 Jefferson. Yet here you argue that he did not get to 400 East Jefferson until well after 1.25, which means he still must have been in his patrol car at 1.25. So, are you now going back to saying that he did have a radio playing in the car after all? If not, you have self-defeated your own argument, because there is no other way for Sabastian that he could have heard a radio report at 1.25 while driving at high speed on the motorway. The problem is of course still the same; there is no evidence of such a broadcast actually having been aired.

And as a side note, it should be mentioned that you are not being logically consistent:

1.   You say Officer Sabastian was at 400 East Jefferson by 1:28 where he could have learned from an NBC reporter about an officer being killed. And 400 East Jefferson is just a few blocks form the site Officer Tippit was killed at.

2.   You also say that the media could not have known about Officer being DOA, “Dead on Arrival”. But if NBC News was in that area that soon, they could have found out where the ambulance was headed and went there themselves and learned that the officer was “DOA”.

So, which is it? Was the media in the vicinity of the Tippit murder scene very early or not? You can’t have it both ways.

When you are right, you are right! After giving this further consideration I withdraw the argument, simply because when Sabastian arrived at 400 Jefferson he had already asked the dispatcher about the DOA, which means that he must have made that call to the dispatcher while en route from Forest Lane to 400 Jefferson. Which, of course, brings us right back to square one; Sabastian could only have heard it in his car, while on the Expressway, yet you have already argreed that it is unlikely he would have a commercial station on, racing down the highway with his sirens on.

So let's examine the known facts and compare them with your speculation;

If the official narrative is true, Tippit was shot and killed at 1.14 / 1.15 and picked up by an ambulance at 1.18. The drive to Methodist Hospital was about four minutes, and when the ambulance got there, at 1.22, Tippit was declared DOA. Back in those days there were no live links, like we have today. All stories had to be called in by phone. In order to get a story like this on the air at 1.25 a reporter had at most only 3 minutes to arrive at the hospital, talk to the doctors, find a phone and call it in. The message then needed to be transcribed for broadcast. To even consider all this could have happened in less than 3 minutes requires a massive stretch of imagination.

The fact is that no broadcast, on either NBC news or any other station, has ever surfaced and no reporter has ever claimed that he was at Methodist Hospital when Tippit was declared DOA.

We have now established that Sabastian was in his cruiser at 1.25, racing down the motorway, likely with sirens on full blast, towards 400 East Jefferson, where he - given the distance - probably arrived after the dispatcher put out a message on channel 2 about Tippit's DOA at 1.28. We also know that on channel 1, the first mention of a DOA was by Sabastian at around 1.25.

If Sabastian had heard a message on a commercial radio station, he would have known that it was an officer who had been killed. He didn't, because he merely said "NBC News is reporting DOA" and when the dispatcher answered "That's correct" he asked "That the officer?" only to follow it with ".... on the President".

Now I don't know where Sabastian got the "NBC News is reporting DOA" from, but the bottom line is that despite Sabastian's comment, there is not a shred of evidence that there was or even could have been a radio broadcast about Tippit's DOA at 1.25. And no amount of twisting and turning or your part is going to change that.