Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure  (Read 2560 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1727
The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« on: October 05, 2020, 01:18:18 PM »
Advertisement

The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure

What is the Biggest Failure of the Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy and the Best Part about the Initial BBN Testing?



First of all, what was the mission of Dr. Barger and BBN, along with Weiss and Aschkenasy?

Was it to test the hypothesis that the Dictabelt recording was made in Dealey Plaza and recorded the gunshots of 1963?

No. Their proper mission was to test out two hypotheses:

          Hypothesis 1:  The Dictabelt recording was made in Dealey Plaza and recorded the gunshots of 1963?

          Hypothesis 2:  The Dictabelt record was not made in Dealey Plaza and so did not record the gunshots of 1963?

Both hypotheses need a fair chance of being found. I don’t think that Dr. Barger gave Hypothesis 2 a fair shake but Weiss and Aschkenasy were particularly biased in their approach.



The BBN Hypothesis which they pursued with single mindedness, is that from the recorded sound, one can deduce:
•   The location of the shooter,
•   the location of what the shooter was aiming at, that is, the small area the bullet struck within,
•   the location of the microphone.

and that the Dictabelt recording likely recorded the sounds of these shots.

They are searching for a correlation between an impulse in the 1963 impulses (7) and the 1978 test impulses ( 432 ). But finding a correlation might not indicate success. The correlation might be a matter of luck. Afterall, checking through hundreds of correlations, one might get lucky (or unlucky, depending on how you look at it) and find a spurious correlation. The lower one sets the correlation threshold, the more likely a false positive will occur. So, one needs some way of telling of the correlations you found are true correlations or false positives.

Again, the key is, if correlations are found:
•   have some way of telling if your correlations are likely true, or are likely false positives.
Your test procedure must have this property. You must have some way of detecting false positives. The more ways the better.


How should your hypothesis by tested? In general, in science, you want’ to be strongest critic of your hypothesis. When designing test procedures to see if it has support or not, you want to make it possible for it to fail, in case it is a false hypothesis. Indeed, you want to make as easy to fail as possible. This is highly counter-intuitive but true. And goes against human nature. You don’t want your hypothesis to be proven false.


For the Acoustic Tests you want to give your hypothesis the maximum number of ways it can fail. There are four ways the BBN Acoustic Test can fail:

          Hurdle 1:  No correlations, that is considered strong enough, is found between any of the 1963 impulses ( 7 ) with any of the 1978 recordings ( 432 ).

          Hurdle 2: Correlations are found but they contradict each other.

          Hurdle 3: Correlations are found but they contradict a highly probable fact of the case, that the shots were aimed at the limousine.

          Hurdle 4: Correlations are found but they contradict another highly probable fact of the case, that they are not consistent with a motorcycle following behind the limousine with reasonable speeds and not reversing directions.

Success is most strongly indicated if some of the 1963 impulses ( 7 ) pass all four hurdles. And none of the impulses failed the second hurdle and none or at most one failed the third hurdle and none failed the fourth.

The BBN tests were designed that the hypothesis could be tripped up in any one of four ways.


The BBN tests did not pass with flying colors, because, while they did find correlations between the 1963 impulses and the 1978 test impulses, too many of them failed for other reasons.

•   Hurdle 1: Four somewhat strong correlations were found for four of the shots ( coefficient 0.8 ) and a much weaker one for a fifth shot ( coefficient 0.6 ), favored by Dr. Thomas.
Basically, the tests got by Hurdle 1 for at least 4 of the 1963 impulses, although a stronger correlation coefficient than 0.8 would be desirable.


•   Hurdle 2: In three out of four cases where there were multiple correlations found, for the same shot, for both a shot from the TSBD and from the Grassy Knoll.
The BBN tests failed to get by Hurdle 2. Some clear false positives were found. Casting doubt on all correlations found.

•   Hurdle 3: In most cases the correlation did not indicate a shot aimed at the limousine. In only 4 out of 15 correlations, was the data consistent with the shot aimed at the limousine.
While one can speculate about hypothetical “diversionary shots”, too many diversionary shots are just too unbelievable. Why wouldn’t even a diversionary shot be aimed at the limousine to increase the chances of success?
The BBN tests failed to get by Hurdle 3.


•   Hurdle 4: In this case the hypothesis held up well. But I believe this likely was a result of limited time to do the work in 10 days, make 3.024 comparisons and calculations by hand. Likely they thought they found one shot, then used that location to guess where to find the next shot, assuming an 11-mph speed of the limousine. If finding a “lucky” correlation was not too unlikely, the correlations found would match the speed of a motorcycle moving at a steady 11 mph.
The BBN tests seems to get by Hurdle 4 well, but I believe that there is another explanation that has nothing to do with successfully finding true correlations.

In any case, not all four hurdles were cleared. The “Dealey Plaza Shooting Was Recorded” hypothesis failed.


The BBN tests were designed, either by accident or on purpose, to fail pretty easily. There were a lot of things that could go wrong. This is not a criticism of the BBN test procedure, but praise. If your hypothesis is false, you want your test procedure to reveal this. I think that, in some ways, in many ways, the BBN procedures are a model of how a hypothesis should be tested.

Not that this was done perfectly. A good procedure won’t work if you simply dismiss all false positives as irrelevant ‘false alarms’ and ignore them. But as long as you present the raw data, as they did, it is still possible for others to detect probable false positives.

If the BBN hypothesis was strong, they would find correlations, with no false positives, with no false alarms, and this hypothesis would have passed all four hurdles with flying colors.

But if the hypothesis was false, it was all too easy to find false positives, or “false alarms”, with the procedure the BBN followed. It seems that for each microphone they tested, they tested all 12 tests shots. Maximizing the odds that multiple correlations would be found, maximizing the odds of detecting false positives.


The great thing about the BBN procedure, is they didn’t do the following.
•   Every time they find a correlation for a shot at the wrong target, they decide not to record it, on the grounds “it is just a false alarm”. It is more than a “false alarm” It is an indication that your procedure is collecting false positives. This should be recorded, and they did.
•   Every time they find a correlation for a shot at the correct target, they decide not to test that microphone for any other target, on the assumption they found a true shot. Why search for other possibilities, like a shot from another location, when you know any found correlation is impossible. The same shot can’t be from both the TSBD and the Grassy Knoll, can it? But you should search for these “impossible shots” because if you find them, this indicates that you are collecting false positives.

Yes, in their final conclusions, they dismissed the false positives. But they did not fail to record them and to list them in their reports.

The only thing I suspect they did wrong is not do a through check of all 3,024 combinations. Due to a lack of time. And this could give a false sense that all the data matches a motorcycle moving forward at 11 mph throughout the entire 10 seconds, when a through check of all 3,024 possibilities may reveal a lot of contradictions in the position of the motorcycle, just as there was were in the position of the shooter and the position of the target.



In contrast, what method did Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy use? Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy took the recording of the 1978 Grassy Knoll shot at Target 3 recorded at Microphone 3 ( 4 ) and calculated what it should have sounded like:

•   If the microphone had been positioned a few feet differently from 3 ( 4 )
and:
•   If the position of the 1963 Grassy Knoll shooter had been positioned a few feet differently from where the 1978 Grassy Knoll shooter was positioned.


We don’t know how many different positions for the microphone they might have calculated. If they made calculations for every position in a grid, one foot apart, 15 feet up the street through 15 feet down the street, and 10 feet wide, that give (15*2 + 1) * (10 + 1) or 341 different positions for the microphone. This is a little more complicated than I described because their assumption was that the microphone would be moving so the calculations would be for what the waveform would be if the microphone started in one position and steadily moved about 5 feet over 300 milliseconds. But, either way, they may be calculating over 300 different positions where each position is not a stationary point but a line segment that is 5 feet long.

For each hypothetical position of the microphone, they might have run calculations for many different hypothetical positions of the Grassy Knoll shooter, positioned several feet to the left or right of the 1978 shooter, and maybe at various depths from sticking the rifle over the fence to being a various number of feet back. For all we know, they may have made calculations for 300 different positions.

If it was that many, it might by 341 * 300 combinations or over 100,000 different combinations of a Grassy Knoll positions with a microphone position. So, perhaps, Dr. Thomas’s 1 in 100,000 calculations might be correct. Even with 1978 computers, it would be possible to run this many comparisons if one let a computer crunch numbers for a few hours, or days, if need be.

In any case, Weiss and Aschkenasy may have calculated a thousand, or maybe many more than a thousand, theorical waveforms, and compared them to the 1978 waveform formed by a test shot from the Grassy Knoll, at Target 3, from microphone 3 ( 4 ). So, there were plenty of opportunities for generating false positives.


So, given the procedure of Weiss and Aschkenasy, how many hurdles does their hypothesis have to pass? Is it four, like the procedure developed by Dr. Barger of BBN? No.

•   Hurdle 1: Must find at least one strong correlation between the waveform calculated from one unique microphone position (which moves 5 feet during the duration of the impulse) with one unique Grassy Knoll position.


•   Hurdle 2: It is alright to find multiple correlations, provided they don’t contradict each other. If two contradictions are found, but both are quite close to each other, that is find. But finding two correlations that different by a lot, the location of the microphone differs by 15 feet and the location of the shooter differs by 20 feet, that’s a failure. One of these correlations has to be a false positive and so both must be considered suspect.

This is not near the number of hurdles the BBN procedure provided. Since only one 1978 shot is being tested, there is no chance of getting correlations that match two different firing positions separated by over 200 feet. Or getting correlations that match for two different targets separated by over 100 feet.

And depending on how Weiss and Aschkenasy did things, the odds of being tripped by either hurdle can be minimized.

They might calculate 10 different microphone positions with 1 Grassy Knoll position. If no correlations are found, with could run the calculations for the same 10 different microphone positions with 10 different Grassy Knoll positions. If no correlations are found, they keep increasing the number of microphone positions and shooting positions until a waveform was generated that matched up well with the 1963 waveform. And call it a day.

We don’t know if this is how Weiss and Aschkenasy did this. They never provided any sort of details of their test procedures. How many combinations were initially calculated in their first computer run. How many in their second. They just provided us with the end result, this position for the Grassy Knoll shooter, combined with this position for the microphone, produces a calculated waveform that matches up very well with the 1963 waveform.

The lack of more details about the history of their test runs, how many test runs were made, how many combinations did each test run make, what were their results, makes me a little suspicious.



The way the procedure should have been run is to run this procedure with different test shots. There were 69 rifle shots fired on that day in 1978. Run these calculations for all the 1978 Grassy Knoll shots that were fired at Target 3, not just for one. If the other Grassy Knoll shots generate microphone and shooter position correlations that are very close together, that is good. If they differ too much, that means false positives have been found.

Expand this to some of the test shots from the TSBD. Yes, I know. Weiss and Aschkenasy consider these shooting locations have been ruled out. Run the test anyway. Using different nearby shooting positions, not just the sniper’s nest. If this procedure is just finding random correlations in data that is “white noise”, it will also likely find correlations for some TSBD shots, just as the BBN procedure found correlations on the same shot with both the TSBD and the Grassy Knoll position.

If this is done, and it is found that no correlation is found for any of the TSBD shots, no correlation is found for any of the Grassy Knoll shots fired at Target 2, only correlations that were test shots from the Grassy Knoll at Target 3, and all these correlations agree with each other, that would be powerful support that they were not finding false positives, that the found correlations were legitimate evidence of a shot from the Grassy Knoll.



What if there is only enough time to do the calculations for one 1978 test shot? Raise the issue with BBN and the HSCA. Stress how important it is to test multiple shots, so a serious effort can be made to find false positives, which will alert them that they are finding correlations in “white noise”. They need more time. Or, failing that, they need more experts to be drafted into this project to get the tests done.

What if the answer comes back that they must made do with the time and resources they have? They can still do more. It would take hardly any addition time to run the computer program, and just compart one shooter position, the 1978 Grassy Knoll position, with one microphone position, 3 ( 3 ). Does the calculated waveform match the real 1978 waveform recorded at microphone 3 ( 3 )? Do the same with several microphone positions, 3 ( 1 ), 3 ( 2 ), 3 ( 3 ), 3 ( 5 ), 3 ( 6 ) and 3 ( 7 ). This would give demonstrate they can indeed calculate the waveform from different microphone positions. And if this could be done with at least one other 1978 test shot, from the Grassy Knoll, at Target 3, so much the better. But that may take a little more time.

And then to make certain to put in the final report that the Weiss and Aschkenasy procedure was not tested enough to confirm the hypothesis. They think the hypothesis was good, but it was not stressed as much as they would like. This is what they should have done, but didn’t.


In conclusion, it does not look like Weiss and Aschkenasy stressed their hypothesis very much at all. Not nearly as much as BBN did. Which may be why the BBN procedure found many clear false positives while the Weiss and Aschkenasy found none.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 11:27:04 PM by Joe Elliott »

JFK Assassination Forum

The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« on: October 05, 2020, 01:18:18 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1727
Re: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2020, 05:03:46 AM »

I just watched an old Nova program called “Prediction by Numbers”. It talked of Ronald Fisher, a twentieth century statistician. He developed the concept of the p-value”. It is used to evaluate a hypothesis. A hypothesis always has an alternative, the null-hypothesis. Let’s say that in the null hypothesis, one expects in 100 trials a positive result to come up 65 times. But there is a new hypothesis that states a positive result should occur more often than 65% of the time. 100 trials are run that result comes up 73 positive results. Should the hypothesis be considered confirmed?

Fisher advocated calculating the probability of getting a positive result 73 times or higher, if the null hypothesis was correct. If the odds of this are 5 per cent or lower, then the hypothesis should NOT be considered proven but instead one has found “statistically significant” results, that merits more study.

This arbitrary threshold of 95% has become the standard in statistical science. Researchers generally need to reach a certainty of 95% to get their findings published and to get more funding for more research. It is a goal everyone wants to reach with their study. This has resulted in a problem that researchers, working under a subconscious bias, tweak their results to get them up to a 95% certainty. Once this is achieved, the subconscious bias to continue is reduced, and false hypothesis end up being published with the claim that it has been established that there is a 95% chance the hypothesis is true. This tendency is known as “p-hacking”. Throughout the scientific community there is a drive to get the certainty up to 95%. It has been found that many hypothesizes which seemed fairly well established were actually false and ended up with a 95% certainty rating due to p-hacking.


Back in 1979, Weiss and Aschkenasy concluded that there was a statistically significant “certainty” that the correlation between the 1963 impulse of the “Grassy Knoll Shot” was not a result of chance. What was the level of certainty? Why, it just happened to be 95%.

Now, one could argue, that if we assume Weiss and Aschkenasy, were not working under the subconscious influence of p-hacking, there is only a 5% chance that these correlations were simply a result of chance.

But, let’s considered the hypothesis that Weiss and Aschkenasy were working under the influence of p-hacking. If they were, we would expect them to use various methods to tweak the results until the certainty level reached 95%. And it turned out the certainty level they reached just happened to be 95%. What are the odds of that? Well, if one considers they should at least get a 50% p-value, so the final p-value they arrive at could be anywhere between 50% and 0.000001%, the odds of getting exactly 5% are only 2%.

The Grassy Knoll hypothesis has a higher p-value, of 5% than the alternative p-hacking hypothesis, which has a p-value of 2%. If one is strictly governed by statistics, one would have to conclude that there was a greater chance that Weiss and Aschkenasy were governed by p-hacking than that they found statistically significant evidence of a shot from the Grassy Knoll.


Of course, I know, Weiss and Aschkenasy stated that their 95% certainty estimate was actually quite conservative. I wonder what percentage of researches who subconsciously were under the influence of p-hacking would also state that their estimates were quite conservative? I would put it at over 95%.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 12:02:49 AM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Michael T. Griffith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
Re: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2020, 09:29:38 PM »
Mr. Elliott's post does not lay a finger on the Weiss and Aschkenasy (WA) sonar analysis. The more I observe Mr. Elliott's posts, the more I tend to believe that he posts here in a deliberate effort to deceive people into believing the lone-gunman theory. I believe he knows better than what he's saying. But, I might be wrong. He might just be so incapable of understanding the acoustical evidence, and so determined not to believe it, that he sincerely posts such horrendously flawed and misleading attacks on the acoustical evidence.

Anyway, in my thread "The HSCA Acoustical Evidence: Proof of a Second Gunman in the JFK assassination," i have posted a large segment from Donald Thomas's discussion on the WA sonar analysis in his book Hear No Evil: Politics, Science, and the Forensic Evidence in the Kennedy Assassination.


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2020, 09:29:38 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1727
Re: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2020, 12:51:08 AM »

Mr. Elliott's post does not lay a finger on the Weiss and Aschkenasy (WA) sonar analysis.

I made my point about Weiss and Aschkenasy. Because of the limited scope of their investigation, it was impossible for them to encounter the kinds of false positives, or false alarms, that bedeviled the BBN study of a few months pervious.

The BBN study found correlations between the 1963 impulses and the 1978 impulses, but these correlations were riddled with false positives:
•   Correlation found between a certain 1963 impulse with both a 1978 TSBD impulse and a 1978 Grassy-Knoll impulse.
•   Correlation found between a certain 1963 impulse with a 1978 impulse fired at the wrong target, not within 70 feet of where the limousine would have been at the time.

The Weiss and Aschkenasy made such an unfortunate result, impossible.  They only looked for correlations for just one of the 1963 impulses, believed to have come from the Grassy Knoll, fired at Target 3.
•   They did not check the correlations for different rifle locations, they only tested the 1978 test shot from the Grassy Knoll.
•   The did not check the correlations for different target locations, only for Target 3.

So, their test design makes it impossible for it to fail the same way the BBN test failed.
•   They won’t find a correlation with the 1963 “Grassy-Knoll” shot with a shot fired from the TSBD, because they did not check any of those impulses.
•   They won’t find a correlation with the 1963 “Grassy-Knoll” shot with a shot fired at the wrong Target, either Target 1, 2, or 4, because they did not check any of those impulses.

All they have to do is keep checking various location near microphone 3 ( 4 ) until they find a correlation, and their hypothesis will be supported. With no chance of an alternative correlation behind found for a shot from the TSBD or fired at a different target with a higher correlation coefficient.

It is as if the experiment was designed to only return a favorable result.



The more I observe Mr. Elliott's posts, the more I tend to believe that he posts here in a deliberate effort to deceive people into believing the lone-gunman theory. I believe he knows better than what he's saying. But, I might be wrong. He might just be so incapable of understanding the acoustical evidence, and so determined not to believe it, that he sincerely posts such horrendously flawed and misleading attacks on the acoustical evidence.

You believe that I might believe in the lone-gunman theory. And also, might believe that the BBN/W&A Acoustic arguments are deeply flawed. The truth is I do believe that the lone-gunman theory is probably true. And I believe the BBN/W&A Acoustic arguments are deeply flawed. I would put the probability of both claims, Oswald acted alone, the acoustic studies are deeply flawed, at over 90%.

But this isn’t exactly something I’ve been keeping a secret about. I don’t think there are too many posters at this forum who have read my posts have much doubt on these issues. You are the rare exception, who strongly suspects, I probably don’t’ believe in the lone gunman theory, but only pretend I do. I probably see the clear truth of the BBN and W&A arguments, but pretend I don’t. These statements of yours about my probable beliefs gives an insight into how wacky your thinking is. It would be akin to me saying that I strongly suspect that you are a fellow LNer, who is just pretending to be a CTer.

Everyone should know, that not everyone in the world thinks they same way they do. That the truths that are so obvious to them, are not so obvious to others. But you seem to have trouble grasping that.



Anyway, in my thread "The HSCA Acoustical Evidence: Proof of a Second Gunman in the JFK assassination," i have posted a large segment from Donald Thomas's discussion on the WA sonar analysis in his book Hear No Evil: Politics, Science, and the Forensic Evidence in the Kennedy Assassination.

Beware, that the most important assertion of Dr. Thomas’s book, that there is only a 1-in-100,000 chance that the correlation between a 1963 impulse with a 1978 test shot impulse was by a coincidence. But this claim by Dr. Thomas is not supported by any other expert in the field, anywhere in the world.

If Mr. Griffith feels that this statement is a lie, instead of calling me a liar, he should provide some citation for this claim from some expert, other than the insect expert Dr. Thomas, who support this claim.

Indeed, I think Mr. Griffith would do better to fling fewer charges of lying at other members of this forum and instead provide more citations for his claims.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 12:52:28 AM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Michael T. Griffith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 929
Re: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2020, 02:40:44 AM »
The Weiss and Aschkenasy made such an unfortunate result, impossible.  They only looked for correlations for just one of the 1963 impulses, believed to have come from the Grassy Knoll, fired at Target 3.
•   They did not check the correlations for different rifle locations, they only tested the 1978 test shot from the Grassy Knoll.
•   The did not check the correlations for different target locations, only for Target 3.

This is the kind of surreal nonsense that you get from someone who either doesn't understand what he's reading or is trying to keep others from understanding the evidence.

* "They only looked for correlations for just one of the 1963 impulses." What?! Say what?! That is comically absurd. WA checked for correlations for more than just one impulse. Good grief, how can you not know this if you've read the WA report? How? This jaw-dropper deserves detailed comment.

In the WA sonar analysis, the simulated grassy knoll test shot had 26 echoes. When the muzzle blast of the test shot was aligned with the first large impulse of the dictabelt 145.15 impulse pattern, i.e., the dictabelt grassy knoll shot, each of those 26 echoes was within 1 millisecond of a corresponding impulse in the 145.15 impulse pattern. So 26 out of 26. Not bad, hey?

But just to make sure they were separating the signal from the noise, WA applied a noise threshold and tested again. And what happened? I've explained this in detail in my thread on the acoustical evidence, but I'll do so again for the benefit of others:

There were 14 large impulses after the apparent muzzle blast in the dictabelt grassy knoll shot (the 145.15 impulse pattern). In the test-shot pattern there were 12 echoes that cleared the noise threshold. WA knew from the lab tests that the Dallas police radio system  had static, and that the marking rate of the static was around 8 impulses per sec. Therefore, within this 1/3-of-a-second pattern, they expected a couple of static impulses, so the two extra impulses were not surprising. Nevertheless, those two extra impulses were scored as non-matches (they were not "discarded," as some amateurish online articles claim). But, even with this, this still meant that 10 of the 12 impulses in the test shot matched impulses in the 145.15 impulse pattern, and they did so to within 1 millisecond. 

As Dr. Thomas has explained, 14 dictabelt impulses, 12 test-shot impulses, and 10 of 12 test-shot impulses matching impulses of the 145.15 shot means that "{N:n:M} was 14:12:10 with the ±1 msec bins," and that the odds that chance produced that degree of correlation are 1 in 100,000. Dr. Thomas first documented this in his 2001 Science & Justice article, and he documents it in more detail in his book.

* "They did not check the correlations for different rifle locations, they only tested the 1978 test shot from the Grassy Knoll." Yes, and they explained why they did so! They did so because the grassy knoll test shot had the highest correlation coefficient of the three matches for the 145.15 impulse pattern, and because they correctly suspected that the two lesser-quality TSBD matches were false matches caused by the 18-foot microphone spacing.

How many times does this have to be explained to you before you will acknowledge it?

There was no "sample bias." They did not arbitrarily pick one match over another to get the conclusion they wanted (they didn't want any particular conclusion). They ran the sonar analysis on the grassy knoll test shot for entirely valid scientific reasons, and the sonar analysis validated their decision.

WA established with their sonar analysis that the grassy knoll test shot was the true match for the 145.15 impulse pattern. Even in their report, WA noted that the probability that chance produced matches in 10 of 12 impulses to within 1 millisecond between the test shot and the dictabelt shot were "considerably less" than 1 in 20 or 5%--"considerably less." Why? They explained why:

Quote
The high degree of correlation between the impulse and echo sequences does not preclude the possibility that the impulses were not the sounds of a gunshot. It is conceivable that a sequence of impulse sounds, derived from non-gunshot sources, was generated with time spacings that, by chance, corresponded within one one-thousandth of a second to those of echoes of a gunshot fired from the grassy knoll. However, the probability of such a chance occurrence is about 5 percent. This calculation represents a highly conservative point of view, since it assumes that impulses can occur only in the two intervals in which echoes were observed to occur, these being the echo-delay range from 0 to 85 milliseconds and the range from 275 to 370 milliseconds. However, if the impulses in the DPD recording were not the echoes of a gunshot, they could also have occurred in the 190-millisecond timespan that separated these two intervals. Taking this timespan into account, the probability becomes considerably less than 5 percent that the match between the recorded impulses and the predicted echoes occurred by chance. (8 HSCA 32)



« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 03:09:19 AM by Michael T. Griffith »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2020, 02:40:44 AM »


Offline Joe Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1727
Re: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2020, 04:55:38 AM »

Indeed, I think Mr. Griffith would do better to fling fewer charges of lying at other members of this forum and instead provide more citations for his claims.

This is the kind of surreal nonsense that you get from someone who either doesn't understand what he's reading or is trying to keep others from understanding the evidence.

* "They only looked for correlations for just one of the 1963 impulses." What?! Say what?! That is comically absurd. WA checked for correlations for more than just one impulse. Good grief, how can you not know this if you've read the WA report? How? This jaw-dropper deserves detailed comment.

Good. Mr. Griffith has dispensed with the insults to me. Not calling me a liar. Not even implying that I secretly agree with him on the acoustic evidence, but pretend I don’t. But he is still not providing citations to his claims.


Weiss and Aschkenasy went through the calculations on computers comparing the 1963 145.15 impulse with the test shot from the Grassy Knoll at Target 3, calculated from various positions near microphone 3 ( 4 ).
•   They never did the same calculations with the test shot from the Grassy Knoll when fired at other targets, like Target 1, 2 or 4.
•   They never did the same calculations with the test shots from the TSBD when fired at any targets, like Target 1, 2, 3, or 4.
•   They never did the same calculations with a different recording of any of the 1978 test shot, using microphone 3 ( 1 ), 3 ( 2 ), 3 ( 5 ) or 3 ( 6 )
•   The never did the same calculations, but using a different 1963 impulse, like the one at 137.70.
So, it was impossible to discover other false positives, with possibly stronger correlations than the one they found within 5 feet of microphone 3 ( 4 ) for:
•   A 1978 test shot from the TSBD,
•   A 1978 test shot fired at a different target,
•   A 1978 test shot recorded at a different location, like 8 feet southwest of microphone 3 ( 8 )
•   A stronger correlation with the 1978 test shot from the Grassy Knoll at Target 3, but with a different 1963 impulse, like 137.70.
If these searches were made and some strong correlations were found, these found false positives would discredit the work of Weiss and Aschkenasy, just as the false positives found by BBN discredited their work.


Question:

But if I am mistaken about this (please don’t say lying), provide a link to the website that says differently, a short quote from that says something like:
“We also did the same calculations with the 1978 test shot from the TSBD fired at Target 2, but found no strong correlations anywhere within 15 feet of microphone 3 ( 4 )”
So, the readers here can do a search and easily find the relevant paragraph.



As an aside, did Weiss and Aschkenasy ever say which of the 1978 Test shots from the Grassy Knoll at Target 3 they ran their comparisons for with the 1963 impulse at 145.15? Was it the test shot with the rifle or the handgun? I’m just curious to know.



* "They did not check the correlations for different rifle locations, they only tested the 1978 test shot from the Grassy Knoll." Yes, and they explained why they did so! They did so because the grassy knoll test shot had the highest correlation coefficient of the three matches for the 145.15 impulse pattern, and because they correctly suspected that the two lesser-quality TSBD matches were false matches caused by the 18-foot microphone spacing.

Yes, they came up with an excuse for not running their computer calculations with any of the other 1978 test shots. But whose to say that if they did, they would NOT have even found a stronger correlation with impulse 145.15 with a test shot from the TSBD, at Target 2, recorded 9 feet down the road from microphone 3 ( 8 )?

After all, BBN found strong correlations of 145.15 with test shots from both the TSBD and Grassy Knoll. Whose to say the same thing would not have happened to Weiss and Aschkenasy if they dared to check this out?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Failure of Dr. Weiss and Mr. Aschkenasy Testing Procedure
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2020, 04:55:38 AM »