Question about Dr. Donald Thomas’s Dictabelt Offset Hypothesis

[Joe Elliott]

Oh my goodness, this is just ignorant. Partner, if you don't like being called out for ignorance, then you really need to stop posting until you know what in the world you're talking about.

Now, FYI, conspiracy theorists have written hundreds of pages on correlating the dictabelt gunshots with gunfire reactions in the Zapruder film. The HSCA discussed this very subject in its final report. Both of the expert consultant reports to the HSCA--the BBN report and the W&A report--discussed this issue; in fact, correlation with the Zapruder film was one of the criteria for identifying gunshot impulse patterns on the dictabelt, for crying out loud. How on earth can you not know this and yet pretend to credibly discuss the acoustical evidence?

Well, keep in mind that the alteration probably only removed 1-2 seconds' worth of frames from the shooting sequence in the Zapruder film. This would explain why the dictabelt gunshots do line up pretty well with the Zapruder film.

Joffrey, I recommend you get Dr. Thomas's book Hear No Evil. It includes four chapters on the acoustical evidence, totaling 131 pages, including an extensive discussion on the correlation between the dictabelt gunshot impulse patterns and the gunfire reactions in the Zapruder film. Dr. Thomas provides a very condensed version of this discussion in the following article:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Acoustics_Overview_and_History_-_part_2.html

Why no, I don’t mind being called ignorant from someone who has been as evasive as you.


Question for Joffrey van de Wiel

Has Mr. Griffith answered your questions about the number of the “shots” on the Dictabelt recording?
And the timing of these “shots”?
And the source of each “shot” (TSBD, Grassy Knoll, etc.)?
And which Zapruder frame each “shot” corresponds to?

Have you found that there is the excellent correlation between the answers that Mr. Griffith has given you and the Zapruder film as he claims we can find?

Or have you found that Mr. Griffith has been evasive, as I predicted.

And if you haven’t found Mr. Griffith to be evasive, how many “gunshots” are to be found on the Dictabelt recording?


And Joffrey, if you have found Mr. Griffith to be evasive, don’t waste your time and money on Dr. Thomas’s “Hear No Evil”. You will find that Dr. Thomas does not answer these questions either, and is just as evasive as Mr. Griffith.

[Joe Elliott]

Well, keep in mind that the alteration probably only removed 1-2 seconds' worth of frames from the shooting sequence in the Zapruder film. This would explain why the dictabelt gunshots do line up pretty well with the Zapruder film.

Question:

Are you claiming that 1 to 2 seconds, or 18 to 36 frames, were removed from the Zapruder film?

Is so, what did they replace these missing frames with?

[Joe Elliott]

The failure of the acoustic analysis, is best shown by the failure to specify when the shots occurred relative to each other.

Back in January 1979, the acoustic experts published the intervals.

First shot at time 0.00 seconds, from the TSBD.
Second shot at time 1.57 seconds, from the TSBD.
Third shot at time 7.45 seconds, from the Grassy Knoll.
Fourth shot at time 7.91 seconds, from the TSBD.

These times are relative to the first shot. So, the 4 shots were over an interval of 7.91 seconds.

They have not published such a table since. Why?

Because the times don’t correlate to the Zapruder, Hughes and Nix films.

The Zapruder and Hughes film, while they don’t show when Officer McLain is at frame z223, they show him too far away to reach within 15 feet of Elm Street, where they need him to be where the acoustic data says he must be. Even if they choose the latest possible time, z223, it doesn’t work. A second difficulty is that if the first shot is at z223, the second shot is at z 252, too soon for the head shot, and the third shot is at z359, way too late to be the head shot.

Pushing the first shot back to z177 solves this problem, but it makes the McClain problem even more absurd, requiring him to travel 200 feet in one second. Impossible. And also, impossible, I might add, in 3.4 seconds.

The Nix film is a problem because it shows all four of the officers who are supposed to be right behind, the Presidential limousine at the time of the head shot, when one of them is supposed to be 120 to 160 feet behind. And the Hughes film shows Officers McLain and Baker right where they are supposed to be, 350 feet behind the Presidential limousine, between vehicles 10 and 11 (the Presidential limousine is vehicle 2) as late as Zapruder frame 160, still going at a slow steady speed. Both the Zapruder film and the Hughes film show the Vice-Presidential car just starting to turn onto Elm, establishing where Officer’s McLain and Baker are at Zapruder frame 160.

That’s it. They are all out of motorcycle officers who could be at Houston and Elm in time. No one is close to where the acoustic evidence says one motorcycle should be, 120 to 160 feet behind the President. Far from making an excellent prediction, the acoustic experts made about the worst prediction they could have made. Not 0 to 40 feet behind the President. Not 330 to 370 feet behind the President. But right in the black hole. Right where there are no police motorcycles with a radio transmitter.


Hence, for the last 40 years, no published list of the time intervals of the Dictabelt shots. An assurance that the time intervals match what is shown on the Zapruder film to an amazing degree, which is an amazing claim, considering that Mr. Griffith does not seem to know what these time intervals are. At least he is not telling us.

Dr. Thomas has since discovered a “fifth shot” somehow missed by the acoustic experts. I think the main value, is that maybe this fifth shot could partly fix the problem. Maybe it will allow a late first shot while still allowing a shot to occur at frame 313. But I don’t think so, because if it did, Dr. Thomas would publish the time intervals of the five shots and not keep them a secret.

Hence, the need to keep these time intervals between the shots a big mystery.

If this is not enough to convince people that the acoustic claims are bogus, I don’t know what is.


Now, expect Mr. Griffith to explain how ignorant I am and to post a link to a bunch of other materials, and to recommend a book or two for people to purchase, and to recommend of us to check it out. None of which will provide these time intervals between the acoustic “shots”.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Table 1.- Synchronization of Putative Shots to Zapruder Frames

Acoustic Event		Tape Time		Tape-Time Interval		Real Time		Z-Frame Equivalent		Shot Origin
A		136.2		- 8.7		9.1		Z-147		No Match
B		137.7		- 7.2		7.5		Z-175		TSBD
C		139.2		- 5.6		5.8		Z-204		Rogue Shot
D		140.3		- 4.6		4.8		Z-224		TSBD
E		(145.1) 144.9		0		0		Z-312		KNOLL
F		145.6		+ 0.7		0.7		Z-326		TSBD

Regarding the 136.2/Z147 shot, keep in mind that the current version of the Zapruder film begins later than Zapruder said it began and later than Dan Rather said it began. There is a long gap between the first appearance of motorcycles on Elm Street and the limo's first appearance on the street. Researchers naturally suspect that a shot and reactions to that shot occurred in that interval, shortly after the limo turned onto Elm Street, and that that's why the segment was removed.

Before Zapruder knew what he was supposed to say, he told CBS News that he began filming as soon as the limousine turned onto Elm Street from Houston Street, as one would logically expect he would have done. But the current Zapruder film shows no turn onto Elm Street and skips from the motorcycles' first appearance on Elm Street to the limousine already on the street at Z133.

And before Dan Rather knew what he was supposed to say, he reported that the version of the Zapruder film that he watched the day after the assassination showed the limousine turning from Houston onto Elm: he said that in the film the limo "made a turn, a left turn, off Houston Street onto Elm Street."

Also, as Dr. Thomas documents, there is no acoustical or trajectory reason to label the 139.2 shot as a rogue shot. Blakey insisted on rejecting that shot because it meant two gunman were firing from behind.

[Joe Elliott]

Joe, it would be easier to follow your argument by using the actual material published by Dr. Thomas and object to what you believe is wrong. One source of "Hear No Evil" is here: http://www.whokilledjfk.net/hear_no_evil.htm

If you go to section FILMED EVIDENCE OF THE MOTORCYCLE you have a table of shots and Z-frames (Table 1). It says that "Tape Times from BBN Report Table 2.", which I haven't checked, but the times you're asking for should be there.

Edit: unfortunately the figures don't display in the url I listed above.

Thank you Otto. This information is most helpful. I’ll start another thread on it in a day or two. At a glance, I can see why Mr. Griffith was not giving us this information directly, even though, the initial impression, is that it matches up with the Zapruder film. But I will show that this is bogus.

[Joffrey van de Wiel]

This is the  dictabelt recording combined with the Zapruder film. In the first half, gunshot sounds have been inserted in those places where the dictabelt shows impulses that the experts said were gunshots. In the second half we can only hear the actual dictabelt recording. This video shows four shots, with the third one the headshot at frame 313. Is it accurate? 

[Joe Elliott]

Joe and Otto, if you want to educate yourselves on the basics of the acoustical evidence, I suggest you watch the following video made by Dr. Thomas in 2014. He covers a lot of the evidence that the dictabelt contains gunfire--not all of it, but a lot of it. He also addresses the crosstalk issue and the Sonalysts study. You'll want to watch the Q&A segment as well, which includes questions from Dr. Mantik and from one of the HSCA staffers who worked with the HSCA acoustical experts. The video is only 40 minutes long and includes lots of graphics.

https://aarclibrary.org/dr-donald-b-thomas-jfk-acoustical-evidence-challenge-and-corroboration/

A few observations:

1.   The Question and Answer period. Every single one of those people were fans of Dr. Thomas. Nobody asked any tough questions, which I would like asked.

2.   My favorite questioner?

The guy at 36:30 informed them that he saw proof that Gerald Ford moved up the bullet in the back of JFK nine inches. Nine inches! Yes, it had to be moved up 9 inches because it turned out that the actual shot came from a blimp firing from the front, but firing down at an angle of 50 degrees (arctan(7/6) = 50 degrees), resulting in a back wound that was 7 inches lower than the throat wound. But, by moving the wound up 9 inches, instead of the back wound being 7 inches below the throat wound, it was now two inches higher, allowing them to say the bullet came from the back coming down at an angle of 18 degrees (arctan(2/6) = 18 degrees) from the sixth floor window.

3.   But what stood out the most was him playing a snippet of the recording from the motorcycle with the stuck microphone. And there was a motorcycle with a stuck microphone. At 7:40, Dr. Thomas plays the recording starting at 12:32 CST on November 1963. He plays it for about 8 seconds. You can hear loud sirens, clearly nearby, during the 8 seconds. This clearly gives the impression that the motorcycle with the stuck microphone was travelling with the Presidential limousine, with sirens blaring, on the way the Parkland hospital. Indeed, even the Police Dispatcher thought so and tried to get someone to find that officer so the key could be unstuck and free up Channel 1 for emergency communication. However, the Police Dispatcher forgot that in addition to having motorcycles accompanying the Presidential limousine, he also had motorcycles waiting at the Trade Mart, where the President was scheduled to give a speech. And that same freeway passes by the Trade Mart Center. Well, if you play the entire 5-minute segment, during the time the limousine was driven at high speed to the hospital, you don’t hear continuous sirens for 5 minutes. Instead, things are quiet, then one can hear the sound of approaching sirens. The sirens are quite loud for a few seconds, and then the sound of the sirens gradually fade away. The you hear sirens approaching again, get loud and fade away. And then a third time the sirens get loud and fade away. This is the sort of noise one would hear from a motorcycle waiting at the Trade Mart Center, not with a motorcycle travelling with limousine to the hospital.

Now, Dr. Thomas isn’t exactly lying here. He did play the authentic recording. But he was being quite deceitful. He only played 8 seconds of sirens. It was only the section where the sirens were loud. Had he played the whole thing, and it would only have taken 5 minutes, his case would have collapsed.

So, yes, I did learn a thing or two about the good Dr. Thomas.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Quote from: Otto Beck on September 16, 2020, 09:48:35 AM
Joe, it would be easier to follow your argument by using the actual material published by Dr. Thomas and object to what you believe is wrong. One source of "Hear No Evil" is here: http://www.whokilledjfk.net/hear_no_evil.htm

If you go to section FILMED EVIDENCE OF THE MOTORCYCLE you have a table of shots and Z-frames (Table 1). It says that "Tape Times from BBN Report Table 2.", which I haven't checked, but the times you're asking for should be there.

Edit: unfortunately the figures don't display in the url I listed above.

Thank you Otto. This information is most helpful. I’ll start another thread on it in a day or two. At a glance, I can see why Mr. Griffith was not giving us this information directly, even though, . . .

What a bunch of lying nonsense. I have provided links to Dr. Thomas's articles in several of my replies. I've also provided citations from his book in some of my replies. I've also provided a link to one of Dr. Thomas's videos on the acoustical evidence. Just a few replies ago, I provided a link to one of Dr. Thomas's discussions on correlating the dictabelt and the Zapruder film. I also cited the pages in his book where he discusses this issue.

First you whine and complain because I have provided long quotes from Dr. Thomas's articles in some of my replies, but then you turn around and claim that I have not been "giving us this information directly."

the initial impression, is that it matches up with the Zapruder film. But I will show that this is bogus.

Yeah, uh-huh. You will do no such thing. You don't even know the basics about the acoustical evidence. You have committed one embarrassing gaffe after another. Just a few replies ago, you made the jaw-dropping claim that conspiracy theorists "don't like" to talk about whether the dictabelt shots correlate with the Zapruder film shots, which proves you have not read the HSCA materials and have not read Dr. Thomas's research. You've devoted several replies to utterly batty claims about offsets, proving you have not even read the NRC panel's report, much less Dr. Thomas's research on the subject.

Question for Joffrey van de Wiel

Has Mr. Griffith answered your questions about the number of the “shots” on the Dictabelt recording?
And the timing of these “shots”?
And the source of each “shot” (TSBD, Grassy Knoll, etc.)?
And which Zapruder frame each “shot” corresponds to?

Have you found that there is the excellent correlation between the answers that Mr. Griffith has given you and the Zapruder film as he claims we can find?

Or have you found that Mr. Griffith has been evasive, as I predicted.

And if you haven’t found Mr. Griffith to be evasive, how many “gunshots” are to be found on the Dictabelt recording?

What a bald-faced liar you are. Well, you're either a bald-faced liar or you have not read most of my replies. I've discussed and provided links on every single one of the issues you mention. Are you just hoping that people who read this thread won't go back and check my previous replies or something? Because if they do, they're gonna wonder how you could make such demonstrably false statements.

Otto Beck
If the Decker/Fisher pair result from cross talk (coming from Channel-2) and Channel-1 records uninterrupted in real time there is no way the Decker/Fisher pair on Channel-2 can be spaced further apart in time that on Channel-1.

If synchronized using the Fischer broadcast the Decker arrives too late on CH-2, if synchronized using the Decker broadcast the Fischer broadcast on CH-1 evidently can't be simulcast.

Since CH-2 is voice activated, simulcasts must be equally or closer spaced on CH-2, something is not right here.

LOL! This is downright funny. Now, I know you copied this from some pro-WC website, and you clearly do not understand what you said. It's obvious you still have not read Dr. Thomas's research, because Dr. Thomas addresses these and other issues regarding the timing of the Decker, Bellah, Curry, and Fisher crosstalk episodes in great detail.

The Decker crosstalk is the most problematic and out-of-sync of all the crosstalk episodes. But you guys pick it as your time anchor because that's the only way you can claim that the gunshots on the dictabelt occur after the assassination. Let me repeat what I've written elsewhere:

* According to the DPD dispatcher’s “12:30” time notation on Channel 2, the gunshots were recorded during the assassination. Yes, the dispatcher on each channel periodically gave time notations, and on the dictabelt the Channel 2 dispatcher voices the time notation “12:30” at virtually the same time the gunshots occur on the dictabelt on Channel 1.

* The first gunshot on the dictabelt occurs just 2 seconds after the Fisher “I’ll check it” crosstalk, and the Fisher transmission occurs just before the dispatcher notes “12:30” on Channel 2.

* The first gunshot on the dictabelt occurs just after Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission. This transmission comes right after Fisher’s “I’ll check it” transmission and just before the dispatcher’s “12:30” time notation. Curry’s “triple underpass” transmission was made to note that the motorcade was on Elm Street and that his car was approaching the triple underpass (his car was ahead of the presidential limo).

* The final gunshot on the dictabelt, which comes 8.3 seconds after the first one, occurs about 10 seconds before Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission, and we know Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission was made 18 seconds after his “triple underpass” transmission.

* Thus, it is very clear that the gunshots on the dictabelt were recorded during the 18 seconds between Fisher’s “I’ll check it” transmission and Curry’s “to the hospital” transmission. Curry yelled “go to the hospital” after he saw that JFK had been wounded, after Curry’s car slowed down to let the limo catch up with it and pass it, and we know when this happened because the event is captured on the Zapruder film.