Question about Dr. Donald Thomas’s Dictabelt Offset Hypothesis

[Joe Elliott]

There are compelling arguments for the stuck open mic being at the Trade Mart, not at the Plaza, like

Worth a read: https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles7.html#N_74_

Otto has a good point. I wish Mr. Griffith would drop everything else and deal with this issue:

https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles7.html#N_74_

Let’s go over the timeline of the 5.5-minute period when the microphone was stuck:

12:31:13 Impulse from what BBN claimed was made by the last shot in Dealey Plaza.
12:31:56 Someone whistling a tune in the background
12:32:42 Someone whistling again.
12:33:01 Sound of sirens can be heard, faintly, but increasing in loudness.
12:33:03 Sire sounds continue.
12:33:18 Sire sounds continue.
12:33:26 Sire sounds continue.
12:33:34 Sire sounds continue.
12:33:55 Someone whistling again.
12:33:38 DSO? Attention all units, all units . . .
12:34:19 Microphone closed.

So, this is recorded either by a motorcycle, initially escorting the motorcade, then escorting the limousine to Parkland hospital. The Trade Mart Center was two miles from Dealey Plaza, but just 200 yards from Harry Hines Blvd. along which the limousine with escorting motorcycles with sirens blaring passed by.

There are several things that clearly indicate that the motorcycle with the stuck microphone was at the Trade Mart Center and not with the motorcade in Dealey Plaza during the shooting.

1.   The sound of the sirens does not come on suddenly and loud and stay loud for five minutes. Instead, there is the sound of no sirens. Then distance sirens. Then the sirens gradually get louder, stay loud for several seconds, then gradually fade away.
2.   After the shooting, while, supposedly being recorded by a motorcycle speeding on the freeway to Parkland, we often hear no sirens but the sound of whistling.
3.   The crosstalk “Attention all units, all units . . .”, the sound of a Dispatcher alerting all units. But this could not have been the Dallas Police Dispatcher, since nothing like this was recorded on Channel 2. It could only have been a dispatcher with another organization, like the County Sheriff Department. And none of there vehicles were escorting the motorcade but some of them where at the Trade Mart Center.

Question for Michael Griffith:

On each of these three points, can you, just using what is recorded on the Dictabelt, explain how this fits a motorcycle escorting the limousine to Parkland Hospital better than a motorcycle waiting at the Trade Mart Center?

Just stick to what’s on the tape and just address these points. Yes, I know when the evidence goes against them, CTers cherry pick some witness. Like the Police Dispatcher who broadcast:

“Unknown motorcycle - up on Stemmons with his mike stuck open on Channel 1. Could you send someone up there to tell him to shut it off?

which is ambiguous anyway because the Trade Mart Center is right by the Stemmons freeway.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Otto has a good point. I wish Mr. Griffith would drop everything else and deal with this issue:

https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles7.html#N_74_

Let’s go over the timeline of the 5.5-minute period when the microphone was stuck:

12:31:13 Impulse from what BBN claimed was made by the last shot in Dealey Plaza.
12:31:56 Someone whistling a tune in the background
12:32:42 Someone whistling again.
12:33:01 Sound of sirens can be heard, faintly, but increasing in loudness.
12:33:03 Sire sounds continue.
12:33:18 Sire sounds continue.
12:33:26 Sire sounds continue.
12:33:34 Sire sounds continue.
12:33:55 Someone whistling again.
12:33:38 DSO? Attention all units, all units . . .
12:34:19 Microphone closed.

So, this is recorded either by a motorcycle, initially escorting the motorcade, then escorting the limousine to Parkland hospital. The Trade Mart Center was two miles from Dealey Plaza, but just 200 yards from Harry Hines Blvd. along which the limousine with escorting motorcycles with sirens blaring passed by.

There are several things that clearly indicate that the motorcycle with the stuck microphone was at the Trade Mart Center and not with the motorcade in Dealey Plaza during the shooting.

1.   The sound of the sirens does not come on suddenly and loud and stay loud for five minutes. Instead, there is the sound of no sirens. Then distance sirens. Then the sirens gradually get louder, stay loud for several seconds, then gradually fade away.
2.   After the shooting, while, supposedly being recorded by a motorcycle speeding on the freeway to Parkland, we often hear no sirens but the sound of whistling.
3.   The crosstalk “Attention all units, all units . . .”, the sound of a Dispatcher alerting all units. But this could not have been the Dallas Police Dispatcher, since nothing like this was recorded on Channel 2. It could only have been a dispatcher with another organization, like the County Sheriff Department. And none of there vehicles were escorting the motorcade but some of them where at the Trade Mart Center.

Question for Michael Griffith:

On each of these three points, can you, just using what is recorded on the Dictabelt, explain how this fits a motorcycle escorting the limousine to Parkland Hospital better than a motorcycle waiting at the Trade Mart Center?

Just stick to what’s on the tape and just address these points. Yes, I know when the evidence goes against them, CTers cherry pick some witness. Like the Police Dispatcher who broadcast:

“Unknown motorcycle - up on Stemmons with his mike stuck open on Channel 1. Could you send someone up there to tell him to shut it off?

which is ambiguous anyway because the Trade Mart Center is right by the Stemmons freeway.

This stuff is just so dumb, so clueless. I see that you and Otto "I Can't Understand Herb Blenner" are using Bowles' bogus transcript for your latest round silliness. Of course, you are clueless about the fact that Bowles falsely shifted the timing of the transmissions in his transcript. Dr. Thomas destroys Bowles' transcript and his other errors in Hear No Evil.

The sirens are a problem?! The motorcycle was at the Trade Mart?! Seriously? Yes, I know that's what the pro-WC websites you rely on tell you, but the sirens and the Trade Mart claims were debunked years ago. If the gunfire impulse patterns were not recorded in Dealey Plaza, then, Laurel and Hardy, you two finally, finally, finally need to get around to explaining how echo patterns unique to Dealey Plaza are contained in the dictabelt's gunshot impulse patterns, and how the N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes of those gunshot impulse patterns were recorded in the correct order and interval on the dictabelt.

If you two clowns could ever gather up the courage, or the integrity, to seriously and honestly study the other side, you would learn this stuff before you embarrassed yourselves over and over again on a public message board.

And, by the way, 12:31:13 is not when BBN claimed the last shot was fired. You two goofballs would know this if you had bothered to read the BBN report. BBN said that the first shot occurred at 12:30:47, and that the last shot occurred at 12:30:55 (2 HSCA 49-50). You guys can't even get basic, simple stuff like this right.

[John Iacoletti]

Joffrey. There was a motorcycle with a stuck ‘transmit’ button, but it was not with the motorcade. It was at the Trade Mart.

There you go again, stating an assumption as a fact.

Joffrey, the KBOX recording was a recreation. They did NOT record the assassination as it happened.

That's false.  They were live broadcasting during the motorcade and turned their original recordings over to the WC.  They were "unavailable" when it came time to do the "The Four Days that Shocked the World" record album, so they had Sam Pate record the re-creation.  The original tapes were still "missing" in 1978 when the HSCA tried to find them.

[Joe Elliott]

The sirens are a problem?! The motorcycle was at the Trade Mart?! Seriously? Yes, I know that's what the pro-WC websites you rely on tell you, but the sirens and the Trade Mart claims were debunked years ago. If the gunfire impulse patterns were not recorded in Dealey Plaza, then, Laurel and Hardy, you two finally, finally, finally need to get around to explaining how echo patterns unique to Dealey Plaza are contained in the dictabelt's gunshot impulse patterns, and how the N-waves, muzzle blasts, and muzzle-blast echoes of those gunshot impulse patterns were recorded in the correct order and interval on the dictabelt.

Put your money where your mouth is. Debunk the “siren argument” one more time.

Show us a link to an audio recording for the entire 5.5-minute span of the stuck microphone. And let the members here judge for themselves if the sirens sound like they are constantly blaring during the second half of the recording, or if it does sound like sirens that approach from the distance, get close, then receded away.

I know Dr. Thomas has this recording, because he played 8 seconds of it to make his “blaring sirens” claim. I do not doubt that the sirens “blared” for a few seconds, but I don’t think they did so over the second half of the recording.

[Joe Elliott]

There you go again, stating an assumption as a fact.


That's false.  They were live broadcasting during the motorcade and turned their original recordings over to the WC.  They were "unavailable" when it came time to do the "The Four Days that Shocked the World" record album, so they had Sam Pate record the re-creation.  The original tapes were still "missing" in 1978 when the HSCA tried to find them.

Where are the links to the articles that show:

1.   KBOX – was making a broadcast from the motorcade at the time of the shooting.

2.   A recording (not a recreation) was made of this broadcast.


3.   And that this recording (again, not a recreation) was turned over to the Warren Commission.

[John Iacoletti]

Show us a link to an audio recording for the entire 5.5-minute span of the stuck microphone. And let the members here judge for themselves if the sirens sound like they are constantly blaring during the second half of the recording, or if it does sound like sirens that approach from the distance, get close, then receded away.

Wait a minute.  You are the one who described this "sirens that approach from the distance, get close, then receded away".  You haven't actually heard the recording?

[John Iacoletti]

Where are the links to the articles that show:

1.   KBOX – was making a broadcast from the motorcade at the time of the shooting.

2.   A recording (not a recreation) was made of this broadcast.


3.   And that this recording (again, not a recreation) was turned over to the Warren Commission.

Both Sam Pate and Karl King acknowledged this in comments made here:

http://www.reelradio.com/comment/comment.cgi?kbox112263~KBOX+Dallas,+November+22,+1963~../se/index.html

[Joe Elliott]

Where are the links to the articles that show:

1.   KBOX – was making a broadcast from the motorcade at the time of the shooting.

2.   A recording (not a recreation) was made of this broadcast.


3.   And that this recording (again, not a recreation) was turned over to the Warren Commission.

Both Sam Pate and Karl King acknowledged this in comments made here:

http://www.reelradio.com/comment/comment.cgi?kbox112263~KBOX+Dallas,+November+22,+1963~../se/index.html

No, they didn’t. I never said that KBOX was broadcasting nothing during that time. I said they were not with the motorcade, broadcasting live, when the assassination happened. So, their “broadcast of the assassination” was just relaying to their listeners the news as it came into them, the same as it was for all the other radio stations. So, it is difficult to see what relevance the original broadcast would be, since they were not broadcasting from Dealey Plaza.

Your own link shows that:

From: KARL KING kingalamo@aol.com Sunday, November 26, 2000 at 08:57:47

I was on the news desk at KBOX and at the half hour, I read a 30 second news break, and returned the air to the disk jocky. Sam came on the two way and very excitedly hollared "Karl, put me on, the police parade frequency is sayiing shots have been fired at the motorcade."

I signlaed the dj to kill the record he was playing and got on the air to introduce Sam with his report of shots being fired at the Presidents motorcade. I started the newsroom tape.

So, Sam Pate was not on the air, did not witness the shooting, but heard over the police frequency (I assume Channel 2) that shots had been fired at the motorcade. That is why he asked to be put on the air immediately. But he was not with the motorcade, it appears he saw nothing, it appears he first learned of the shooting from the police radio and then arranged for him to speak over the commercial radio.

Now Karl King does relate that the 24-hour tape containing the recordings disappeared. I don’t know why the Warren Commission or anyone else would destroy these recordings, since, not containing a live broadcast from Dealey Plaza, what relevance could they be?

I am speculating here, but suppose someone was supposed to start a fresh 24-hour tape every 24-hours. But forgot to do so. If that happened, would they confess their error? Or instead report that the tape had disappeared.


I didn’t find a first-hand report from Sam Pate about what was happening the first few seconds of hearing the news. But I did find this the following.

Another account, from a KBOX reporter who, I take it, was in a separate news van but near Sam Pate was Ron Jenkins. His account is shown below:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2013/11/22/rowlett-resident-covered-kennedy-assassination-for-kbox-am-radio/

Jenkins says he was in another mobile unit waiting for the motorcade to go through Dealey Plaza when a police buddy in front of him pulled back and yelled at him through the window.

“‘They got a problem up there somewhere,’” Jenkins said the police officer told him. “Shots had been fired. I said ‘What do you mean?’ [The officer] said someone had fired shots at the motorcade.”

So, again, reinforcing what Karl King said, the mobile units of KBOX were not broadcasting live as the assassination happened while observing from the freeway. Instead it appears the KBOX reporters first learned of the shooting from either the police radio or a policeman directly.


Wait, I see an email from Sam Pate himself:

I was on Stemmons Fwy when the radio and Sheriff Bill Decker said to get some men up into those railroad yards and find out where those shots came from. I immediately radioed Karl King that shots have been fired, put a bulletin on immediately. Karl did and then called UPI and according to UPI, we had beaten their own guy Merriman Smith to the story. There were no cell phones back then, tv cameramen didn't have audios. I was in the Northbound Lane faceing the southbound lanes and I was talking to a guy names Josh Dowdell who had pulled up behind me to see if I had car trouble. I told Josh, a friend of mine , to get in and wait for the motorcade..that was when Deckers report came on. After I radioed King, I peeled rubber toward the motorcade and when we met all of us were going about 80 miles per hour and I was heading right for them. I was afraid to veer oneway or another because they might also veer from their lane. Kennedy's car went right by my drivers side, the dark blue cadillac convertible went to my right and Johnson's light blue lincoln went far to my left and almost went off the freeway.

This confirms what I have heard before. No live broadcast from the motorcade, or Dealey Plaza, or even from the Stemmons Freeway. Sam Pate was not on the air, but was instead monitoring the police airways.