The First Shot

[Charles Collins]

Thanks for your revisions to the dimensions on the H&E drawing.  I did check the width of a 1961 Lincoln Continental here and the width is 78.6 inches. So much for the drawings!

I have done a comparison of my model vs. Jerry's and they are very close.  My side window back edge is correct but the window should be wider.  But Jerry's comparison is bogus. He has the arrow on my model going back to the back of the rear seat whereas on his it goes to about JFK's upper back. Here is the corrected comparison:

At first glance, it appears that two digits might be reversed, the drawing shows 76.8”. However, there are more issues with the drawing than just that.

According to this web page: https://www.mvlimo.com/limo-history-jfks-limo-1961-lincoln-continental/, the stock Lincoln was lengthened by 41.3”. According to your link (and others), a stock 1961 Lincoln Continental is 212.4” long overall. The sum of those two dimensions is 253.7”. The drawing shows 255.1” for the overall length. If we assume the actual lengthened dimension of 41.3” is correct, we have a length to width ratio of 253.7/78.6 = 3.2277. If we measure the actual dimensions of the drawing (as it prints at 100%) using a 3/4” = 1’-0” scale rule, we get 188.5” long by 56.5”. Therefore, the measured length to width ratio is 188.5/56.5 = 3.3362. This equates to the drawing’s length to width ratio being 1.03436 times what it appears that it should be. In other words, the drawing shows the limo being longer than it should be by 3.436%. And 3.436% of 253.7” is 8.717”, or close to 9” too long compared to what is believed to be a more accurate aspect ratio.

I do wonder if either Ford or someone who used to work at H&E still has drawings that they might have prepared for this Limo…

[Andrew Mason]

At first glance, it appears that two digits might be reversed, the drawing shows 76.8”. However, there are more issues with the drawing than just that.

According to this web page: https://www.mvlimo.com/limo-history-jfks-limo-1961-lincoln-continental/, the stock Lincoln was lengthened by 41.3”. According to your link (and others), a stock 1961 Lincoln Continental is 212.4” long overall. The sum of those two dimensions is 253.7”. The drawing shows 256.1” for the overall length. If we assume the actual lengthened dimension of 41.3” is correct, we have a length to width ratio of 253.7/78.6 = 3.2277. If we measure the actual dimensions of the drawing (as it prints at 100%) using a 3/4” = 1’-0” scale rule, we get 188.5” long by 56.5”. Therefore, the measured length to width ratio is 188.5/56.5 = 3.3362. This equates to the drawing’s length to width ratio being 1.03436 times what it appears that it should be. In other words, the drawing shows the limo being longer than it should be by 3.436%. And 3.436% of 253.7” is 8.717”, or close to 9” too long compared to what is believed to be a more accurate aspect ratio.

I do wonder if either Ford or someone who used to work at H&E still has drawings that they might have prepared for this Limo…

The H&E drawing at 6 HSCA 50 shows the length as 255.1"   CE872 is difficult to read but looks like 21' 3" which would be 255".

[Zeon Mason]

Although it MAY be  possible that JBC could be hit by a 2nd shot from the same SE window gunman, after JFK was hit in the throat /neck atZ195-210, that 2nd shot could NOT have been fired by an MC rifle at Z224-226, because it’s only 1.5 secs from Z195-Z205), as well as that JFK has not yet leaned leftward atZ224-226.

The reaction of JBC right shoulder rotating counterclockwise and moving forward virtually in sync with Z224-226 movement of JFK , does not allow enough time for JFK to lean leftward so as to clear the  LOS for the SE 6th story window gunman to fire 1.5 sec later, hitting JBC at Z224-226.

It’s not until a few seconds  after Z224-226 and at that point  when JBC has completed his counterclockwise shoulder turn that began at Z224-226 , and he has raised his right hand clinching his hat and he is turning  in opposite rotation (clockwise) , attempting to look back at JFK. (This approx in the Z 275 -278 range)

So the way it looks to me, for Andrews scenario to work would require TWO gunman firing from 2 different angles  in the following sequence:

1st shot :Z195 ( between Betzner 186 and Willis Z205) and Willis girl almost fully stopped running). This shot, fired by a gunman (#1)at SE window,  hits JFK in the neck  and exits his throat and goes somewhere not hitting anyone else. There is some kind of delayed nervous system response by JFK which happens at Z224-226

2nd shot:  This shot fired by gunman (#2) from a different angle (SW window?) that has a clear LOS to JBC, unobstructed by JFK, takes a shot at about Z 224-226 that hits JBC in the right shoulder , causing the rotation of JBC. This shot is only 1.5 secs after the 1st shot fired by the 1st gunman at the SE window.

3rd shot at Z313 fired by either gunman , 5-6 seconds after 1st shot at Z195-Z205 or 2nd shot at Z224-226.


Problems :

A.The spacing of the 3 shots would be 1..2…..3
Which is opposite what 2/3rds witnesses heard as 1……2..3.

B. A bullet which passed thru JFKs neck and throat and then where did it go?

C. A solitary gunman 2nd independent shot to JBC is difficult to explain how JBC is being hit at Z224-226 , (because of the abruptly turning shoulder of JBC in sync with JFKs movement of arms and hands to throat ).  JFK is still obstructing the SE gunmans LOS to JBC at Z225-226.

D. Presuming the notion that the gunman at SE window had approx 5 minutes to study Elm
St , the tree obstruction and light pole, then why would he choose to shoot in the Z 195-205 range thru  branches of a tree even if the foliage was minimal?

E. The Z film does not appear to indicate that JFK is being hit at Z 195-205

F. If JFK 1st shot hit from Z210-220, then it’s even more improbable to be just 1 gunman using an MC rifle

[Charles Collins]

The H&E drawing at 6 HSCA 50 shows the length as 255.1"   CE872 is difficult to read but looks like 21' 3" which would be 255".

Thank you for catching my error.  It really does look like 256.1” on the print out that I made.  But, it appears that the electronic copy of the image that I used isn’t the best quality.  I have corrected the post accordingly.

[Walt Cakebread]

I'm assuming you're talking about the moment JFK is shot for the first time causing his fists to go up to his throat. The question is, if we assume there are three shots from the TSBD, which shot is this - first, second or third?
IMO the shot that caused JFK to raise his fists to his throat occurred at z223. The opening post of this thread is an assertion that no shot took place before z207. Less than one second after this (z223) Kennedy is hit. This leads me to conclude the first shot fired from the TSBD is the one that hits Kennedy in the throat. Quite a number of "ear-witnesses" describe a pattern to the shots - shot, pause, two shots closer together. If this is the case the second shot must be the head-shot with the third shot coming shortly after that.

if we assume there are three shots from the TSBD,

Were there three shots from the TSBD???.....   ASSUME.....

Most witnesses said the second and third shots sounded as if they were very close together....almost as if it was a single shot.

Z350 - Z312 = 38 frames ...... Divided by 14 fps= 2.71 seconds

Nearly 3 seconds apart would NOT sound like a single shot   

[Andrew Mason]

Problems :

A.The spacing of the 3 shots would be 1..2…..3
Which is opposite what 2/3rds witnesses heard as 1……2..3.

So we should look for evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the first and last. With the first just before z202 and after z186 and the third shot at z312-313, that puts the midpoint around 250-255.  In order to make a perceptible difference one would expect a second shot around 270 to fit that pattern. If all shots were fired by the same shooter, which is what the three men on the fifth floor said occurred, the second shot would have to be no closer than 2 seconds before the last.

B. A bullet which passed thru JFKs neck and throat and then where did it go?

To answer that, one needs to look at the relative positions of the two men relative to the SN at the time of the first shot. At z186-202, the angle of the car direction to the SN was 13-14 degrees right to left.  At that time, JBC was turned right.  The wound characteristics of the thigh wound indicate that it was a punctate wound from the butt end of an intact missile. A small amount of lead was found embedded in the left femur. CE399 was damaged on only one side on its butt end.

C. A solitary gunman 2nd independent shot to JBC is difficult to explain how JBC is being hit at Z224-226 , (because of the abruptly turning shoulder of JBC in sync with JFKs movement of arms and hands to throat ).  JFK is still obstructing the SE gunmans LOS to JBC at Z225-226.

He was hit later.  The shot pattern and Altgens tells us that there was only one shot prior to z255. 

D. Presuming the notion that the gunman at SE window had approx 5 minutes to study Elm
St , the tree obstruction and light pole, then why would he choose to shoot in the Z 195-205 range thru  branches of a tree even if the foliage was minimal?

The Secret Service film shows that the tree was not that much of an obstruction and that JFK was likely in clear view by z195.

E. The Z film does not appear to indicate that JFK is being hit at Z 195-205

You are assuming an instantaneous reaction?  Many bullets are not even felt.  JFK may be reacting in z226 and after because of the effect of the neck shot.

F. If JFK 1st shot hit from Z210-220, then it’s even more improbable to be just 1 gunman using an MC rifle

Well, a first shot at z210-220 does not fit the shot pattern unless the second shot was less than 2 seconds before the head shot.

[Dan O'meara]

if we assume there are three shots from the TSBD,

Were there three shots from the TSBD???.....   ASSUME.....

Hey Walt!
Good to see you're back on the scene.
And good to see you still blundering around, believing every thing you say is a fact just because you've said it.

Yes Walt, this thread is based on the assumption there were three, clearly audible shots fired from the SN.
This assumption is based on the following:

Over 160 witnesses [more than three quarters of the 200+ witnesses who gave information about the shots] reported hearing three, clearly audible shots.

At least two witnesses report seeing a man with a rifle pointing towards JFK at the time of the shooting from the SN window. A few others reported seeing just the rifle sticking out [I find the suggestion this is a "decoy" laughable].

Harold Norman, stood directly beneath the SN at the time of the shooting reports the shots as coming from directly above him.

The first officer on the scene [officially] was Mooney, who reported discovering three spent shells in the SN, indicating three shots from that position.The notion that Mooney is some kind of stooge can be dismissed as it is he who also reports Fritz arriving on the scene and picking up the shells before they are photographed by Studebaker [thus destroying the chain of custody and, potentially, tampering with evidence]. Tom Alyea reports the same thing.

I've no doubt you don't have a scrap of credible evidence to support where you think the shots were fired from, but that's never stopped you before. Why go to the trouble of collecting facts when you can just make them up.

Most witnesses said the second and third shots sounded as if they were very close together....almost as if it was a single shot.

A typical Walt "fact".
It is absolutely not true, not the case, not a fact that "most witnesses" said the second and third shots  were "almost as if it was a single shot". Of the 200+ witnesses asked, about a quarter of these reported a shot pattern where the second two shots were a lot closer together than the first two two shots. Of this group, a handful of witnesses described the second two shots as being almost simultaneous.

I am persuaded that the last two shots were really close together, which isn't really convenient for the model I'm proposing.
The first shot is the "throat shot" that passes through both men at z222/z223. Over 40 witnesses describe JFK reacting to the first shot as we see in the Z-film - stiffening up, hands raised to throat area and slumping towards Jackie.
The second shot is the head shot at z312/z313, with a final shot very shortly after this.
But why take this final shot? JFK's head has just exploded.
And why hurry the shot?

Z350 - Z312 = 38 frames ...... Divided by 14 fps= 2.71 seconds

Nearly 3 seconds apart would NOT sound like a single shot

Nowhere have I said that we are to assume the rifle used was the MC.

[Dan O'meara]

So we should look for evidence of a second shot after the midpoint between the first and last. With the first just before z202 and after z186 and the third shot at z312-313, that puts the midpoint around 250-255.  In order to make a perceptible difference one would expect a second shot around 270 to fit that pattern. If all shots were fired by the same shooter, which is what the three men on the fifth floor said occurred, the second shot would have to be no closer than 2 seconds before the last.
To answer that, one needs to look at the relative positions of the two men relative to the SN at the time of the first shot. At z186-202, the angle of the car direction to the SN was 13-14 degrees right to left.  At that time, JBC was turned right.  The wound characteristics of the thigh wound indicate that it was a punctate wound from the butt end of an intact missile. A small amount of lead was found embedded in the left femur. CE399 was damaged on only one side on its butt end.
He was hit later.  The shot pattern and Altgens tells us that there was only one shot prior to z255. 
The Secret Service film shows that the tree was not that much of an obstruction and that JFK was likely in clear view by z195.
You are assuming an instantaneous reaction?  Many bullets are not even felt.  JFK may be reacting in z226 and after because of the effect of the neck shot.
Well, a first shot at z210-220 does not fit the shot pattern unless the second shot was less than 2 seconds before the head shot.

With the first just before z202 - NOT TRUE

the third shot at z312-313, -NOT TRUE

A small amount of lead was found embedded in the left femur. - NOT TRUE

The Secret Service film shows that the tree was not that much of an obstruction and that JFK was likely in clear view by z195. - NOT TRUE

Many bullets are not even felt. - 

JFK may be reacting in z226 and after because of the effect of the neck shot. - D'uh. Do you think so. 


Just tidying up the usual lies and misrepresentations.
I've noticed you have assiduously avoided getting involved in the latest method of destroying your dead theory, involving the witnesses stood at the side of Elm, closest to the limo at the time of the assassination, and their recollections as to whether the limo had passed their position or not at the time of the first shot.

Are you not embarrassed for yourself at the amount of evidence you have to overlook to keep flogging your dead theory.
I would be.