The First Shot

[John Iacoletti]

If all shots were fired by the same shooter, which is what the three men on the fifth floor said occurred,

I don’t recall any of them ever saying that.

[Walt Cakebread]

Hey Walt!
Good to see you're back on the scene.
And good to see you still blundering around, believing every thing you say is a fact just because you've said it.

Yes Walt, this thread is based on the assumption there were three, clearly audible shots fired from the SN.
This assumption is based on the following:

Over 160 witnesses [more than three quarters of the 200+ witnesses who gave information about the shots] reported hearing three, clearly audible shots.

At least two witnesses report seeing a man with a rifle pointing towards JFK at the time of the shooting from the SN window. A few others reported seeing just the rifle sticking out [I find the suggestion this is a "decoy" laughable].

Harold Norman, stood directly beneath the SN at the time of the shooting reports the shots as coming from directly above him.

The first officer on the scene [officially] was Mooney, who reported discovering three spent shells in the SN, indicating three shots from that position.The notion that Mooney is some kind of stooge can be dismissed as it is he who also reports Fritz arriving on the scene and picking up the shells before they are photographed by Studebaker [thus destroying the chain of custody and, potentially, tampering with evidence]. Tom Alyea reports the same thing.

I've no doubt you don't have a scrap of credible evidence to support where you think the shots were fired from, but that's never stopped you before. Why go to the trouble of collecting facts when you can just make them up.

A typical Walt "fact".
It is absolutely not true, not the case, not a fact that "most witnesses" said the second and third shots  were "almost as if it was a single shot". Of the 200+ witnesses asked, about a quarter of these reported a shot pattern where the second two shots were a lot closer together than the first two two shots. Of this group, a handful of witnesses described the second two shots as being almost simultaneous.

I am persuaded that the last two shots were really close together, which isn't really convenient for the model I'm proposing.
The first shot is the "throat shot" that passes through both men at z222/z223. Over 40 witnesses describe JFK reacting to the first shot as we see in the Z-film - stiffening up, hands raised to throat area and slumping towards Jackie.
The second shot is the head shot at z312/z313, with a final shot very shortly after this.
But why take this final shot? JFK's head has just exploded.
And why hurry the shot?

Nowhere have I said that we are to assume the rifle used was the MC.

Hi Dan....Thanks for the warm ( and insincere) welcome

Please post actual proof the the three shells ( originally TWO) that allegedly were fired from the SE corner window, were IN FACT fired from that site.

[Walt Cakebread]

I don’t recall any of them ever saying that.

Nor do I......but perhaps Mr O'meara will post proof that all three men reported that the three shots were all fired by the same shooter.   Or how those three man KNEW a "MAN" ( not a woman) had fired the shots

[Andrew Mason]

I don’t recall any of them ever saying that.

You are right.  They just said that the shots came from the floor directly above them (the SN). One then needs to use a little bit of reasoning to conclude from this that this means the shots were fired from the same rifle. e.g.:

• Norman said that the shots were followed by a bolt action reload and shell hitting the floor.
• At no time were two people seen in the SN.
• The setup made it impossible for two shooters to be in the SN firing at the same time.
• Only one rifle was seen in the SN.
• Only one window in the SN was open.
• Unsurprisingly, no rifle other than the MC was ever found.

In other words, unless you are suggesting that there were two shooters and two rifles firing from the SN, which is absurd, the evidence from the three men is that all three shots were fired by the same shooter.

[Walt Cakebread]

You are right.  They just said that the shots came from the floor directly above them (the SN). One then needs to use a little bit of reasoning to conclude from this that this means the shots were fired from the same rifle. e.g.:

• Norman said that the shots were followed by a bolt action reload and shell hitting the floor.
• At no time were two people seen in the SN.
• The setup made it impossible for two shooters to be in the SN firing at the same time.
• Only one rifle was seen in the SN.
• Only one window in the SN was open.
• Unsurprisingly, no rifle other than the MC was ever found.

In other words, unless you are suggesting that there were two shooters and two rifles firing from the SN, which is absurd, the evidence from the three men is that all three shots were fired by the same shooter.

The fly in the ointment of this theory is:.....The Carcano couldn't possibly have been fired rapidly enough to make shots two and three, sound like they were less than three seconds apart.

[Dan O'meara]

Hi Dan....Thanks for the warm ( and insincere) welcome

Please post actual proof the the three shells ( originally TWO) that allegedly were fired from the SE corner window, were IN FACT fired from that site.

Seconds before the motorcade enters Dealey Plaza, Roberts and Fischer saw a man in the SN window [who was apparently not Oswald].
Euins and Brennan report a man pointing a rifle from the SN window towards the limo at the time of the shots.
Other witnesses saw what appeared to be a rifle sticking out of the same window.
At this time Hank Norman is directly beneath the SN.
Norman reports hearing the shots coming from directly above him and hears the shells hitting the floor.
The first officers at the SN report seeing three shells on the floor in the SN.
Other than an actual video of the shots being taken, I'm not sure what further evidence could be offered to verify that three shots were fired from the SN.
However, as I've already stated, Mooney and Alyea report that Fritz picked up the shells and may well have pocketed them.
Deputy Sheriff Jack Faulkner, in his initial report, states that when Fritz arrived on the sixth floor he was given the shells.
Fritz also pocketed the round ejected from the MC.
As such, it is impossible to verify that the shells that were allegedly discovered in the SN are the same shells photographed by Studebaker or that they were the shells involved in the three shots taken from the SN.

You state there were originally two shells allegedly fired from the SN window.
WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE FOR THAT?

[Dan O'meara]

Nor do I......but perhaps Mr O'meara will post proof that all three men reported that the three shots were all fired by the same shooter.   Or how those three man KNEW a "MAN" ( not a woman) had fired the shots

It was Andrew who posted the comment you're having a rant about so ask him about it.

[Zeon Mason]

If we rely on Harold Normans “boom clack clack” description of the sound of the rifle fired, then how can we ignore his spacing the 3 shots all fired in about a span of only 4 secs judging from his recorded interviews?


That’s just too quick to be the MC rifle imo

Also (imo) Norman seems to space the last #2 and # 3 “boom clack clacks” slightly closer together than #1 and #2.

My own personal and yet to be proved theory  is that a semi auto rifle was used by the SE window gunman and that it was Z224 that was the 1st shot that went thru both JFK and JBC

However, there still some problem finding a semi auto rifle that might make some after shot sound that could be mistaken as “clack clack”

The closest  semi rifle I’ve found that has a kind of “clack” noise that follows the firing of the shot is the M1941 Johnson 7.62 mm semi auto rifle.

The speculative sequence of shots for a semi auto rifle:

1st shot is fired at Z223-224 in a selected zone that the gunman having had at least 5 minutes at the SE window chose as the best range and clear of the tree.

This fits well with reaction time of 1.5 secs for SS agents turning their heads to the TSBD as photographed by Altgens no. 6 photo which is approx Z255.

The gunman did not see the desired head shot result from his 1st shot so took another 4.8 secs to aim. He was aided by Greer( accidentally) slowing the Limo down , and so he fired his last 2 shots in rapid succession as this was his last opportunity.

The 2nd shot was fired at Z313 followed by an 0.5 sec 3rd shot that went slightly high just missing JFKs head. This was due to the muzzle rise effect when firing 2 shots rapidly with a semi auto rifle.

Since James Tague said it was the 2nd OR the 3rd shot which he thought hit the curb nearby him, then it’s a plausible speculation it could be a  3rd shot that went slightly high that hit the curb with enough impact to chip the curb.

Where that bullet went is a mystery. Perhaps it’s still there somewhere near the Triple overpass buried in the ground or went into a storm drain.

The bullets fired from the semi auto rifle might have had a different composition of metal jacket and were pointed shaped. This might be the reason for metal trace elements found in the curb which do not match the MC 6.5 mm ball nosed copper jacketed bullet.

Also  the bullet found on the JFK stretcher by the man who found it initially, was described by him as appearing to be more pointed shaped  than the shape of the CE 399 bullet which he was later shown and asked to confirm( which he did not ) in  report that was made by FBI agent Odum, who 50 years later denied ever making such report.