The First Shot

[Jerry Organ]

The problem However. Is that an SBT straight line trajectory does NOT work for this scenario either, as the Beyond Conspiracy experiment showed, the bullet entered the back of the JFK replica model and exited much lower than the throat , actually exiting thru approximately the right upper chest area of the JFK model.

This is where Myers had the bullet strike and exit Kennedy (model shown standing straight).

[Andrew Mason]

Mason's Voodoo Geometry.

I asked you to show the views of your 3D model, (ie. without changing anything except the viewing position) from Zapruder's position:



to the view from the SN:



You have not done that yet.  Moreover, your view from the SN shows the bullet through JFK's neck striking JBC near the spine, no where near the right armpit. I am waiting.

You are in an occupation where lying and distorting reality is rewarded.

Actually, in my profession, lying and distorting reality will get you disbarred.

[Zeon Mason]

@ Jerry Organ: could you find and post the image of the 2 torso models experiment that they ( Gary Mack and company) set up to conduct an actual firing a 6.5 mm MC bullet from an MC rifle?

I’m referring to a red line that was used in a still frame from the video of that experiment that illustrates the although Altgens bullet  DID travel along a straight line thru both torsos, that the exit point in the JFK torso was NOT at throat level but rather much lower at approx the upper right chest level.

So imo , this  does Not prove the theoretical computer model that Myers constructed that has the bullet exiting the throat.

It DOES however convince me without doubt that a 6.5 mm MC bullet fired at 2000 ft /sec muzzle volocity can go completely thru 2 human bodies.

Also, even if it can be demonstrated that the Myers model is correct via some other experiment, the entrance hole in JFK that the autopsy photo shows, is low enough that the bullet is traveling thru more mass of body than just the throat mass and therefore, there is probably enough momentum transferred by the bullet to cause the lurch forward of JFK at approx Z224-226.

Andrew Masons  ( no relation heh) proposition that it’s not until Z270 that JBC is hit does not explain the sudden forward and counterclockwise motion of of JBCs right shoulder that occurs at Z-224-226 and the quick flap of the jacket lapel also that Myers identified.

It’s very unlikely that a “wind gust” caused that lapel flap so coincidental to instant that JBCs right shoulder also is turning rapidly.

[Jerry Organ]

@ Jerry Organ: could you find and post the image of the 2 torso models experiment that they ( Gary Mack and company) set up to conduct an actual firing a 6.5 mm MC bullet from an MC rifle?

All I can figure is that you may be referring to the 2004 documentary "JFK Beyond the Magic Bullet". I don't think it involved Mack, Myers or an "Altgens bullet".

I’m referring to a red line that was used in a still frame from the video of that experiment that illustrates the although Altgens bullet  DID travel along a straight line thru both torsos, that the exit point in the JFK torso was NOT at throat level but rather much lower at approx the upper right chest level.

So imo , this  does Not prove the theoretical computer model that Myers constructed that has the bullet exiting the throat.

Here is a clip from one of the shot attempts by the group Anatomical Surrogates Technology for the program "JFK Beyond the Magic Bullet".

The "Kennedy" torso is tilted backwards too far, in an almost anatomical-position. Whereas Kennedy had a natural inclination for slouching when seated in a car for a long period. They were firing from a distance in a platform held aloft by a crane. It was gusty, so the shot ranged a bit lower than they intended. It therefore exited at the chest level, but there were no hard tissue surrogates in the Kennedy "torso" so the missile continued on as if it had gone through the slightly less amount of soft tissue in the neck.

A better test would be to duplicate the Kennedy "slouch" and fire exactly where the autopsy photo shows the inshoot. One could improve the accuracy of the entry site by having the rifle on a tripod on a raised platform, say, ten feet behind the surrogate model. Bullet would have to have a little less powder and be a bit weaker to allow for the passage through the air between the SN and the car in the Z220s. But then the critics would say that test was "rigged" because the bullet velocity was reduced.

Sure would be nice if someday a JFK critic/"researcher" would conduct a legitimate firing test rather than nitpick at the work of others.

It DOES however convince me without doubt that a 6.5 mm MC bullet fired at 2000 ft /sec muzzle volocity can go completely thru 2 human bodies.

Also, even if it can be demonstrated that the Myers model is correct via some other experiment, the entrance hole in JFK that the autopsy photo shows, is low enough that the bullet is traveling thru more mass of body than just the throat mass and therefore, there is probably enough momentum transferred by the bullet to cause the lurch forward of JFK at approx Z224-226.

Andrew Masons  ( no relation heh) proposition that it’s not until Z270 that JBC is hit does not explain the sudden forward and counterclockwise motion of of JBCs right shoulder that occurs at Z-224-226 and the quick flap of the jacket lapel also that Myers identified.

It’s very unlikely that a “wind gust” caused that lapel flap so coincidental to instant that JBCs right shoulder also is turning rapidly.

The entrance hole in the autopsy photo isn't "low" or in the upper back outside the neck. It's at the C7 level, the very bottom of the base of the back of the neck. It's described in words similar to that in the Bethesda autopsy report and the reviews by the Clark Panel and HSCA.

[Andrew Mason]

All I can figure is that you may be referring to the 2004 documentary "JFK Beyond the Magic Bullet". I don't think it involved Mack, Myers or an "Altgens bullet".

Here is a clip from one of the shot attempts by the group Anatomical Surrogates Technology for the program "JFK Beyond the Magic Bullet".

I noticed that they moved the trajectory from the SN so that the SN is directly behind the limo for the SBT:


 It was not in that position. The trajectory at z224 is still 9 degrees right to left through JFK. They have it going left to right in order to strike JBC's right armpit.  There is also the problem is that it is not possible to match the wounds in Connally using that trajectory in the position that Connally is in at z224.

[Jerry Organ]

I asked you to show the views of your 3D model, (ie. without changing anything except the viewing position) from Zapruder's position:



to the view from the SN:

You asked for : "You have yet to show the view from Zapruder's position of the two men in the car as you have positioned them."

Nothing about some view from the SN window. Here then is the approximate view from the SN window for the frame Z223.

You have not done that yet.

You won't be getting anything from me if you don't stop insinuating I would change models for different views in the same graphic. I have never done that, and such an underhanded tactic speaks to your "profession" as a defense attorney.

Moreover, your view from the SN shows the bullet through JFK's neck striking JBC near the spine, no where near the right armpit. I am waiting.

That's not Z223. It's for the Z190s and was meant to show that Connally was not in your ridiculous position of having his entire torso to the right of the Kennedy out-shoot. The opposite is true, most of Connally's torso was to the left of the out-shoot.

Actually, in my profession, lying and distorting reality will get you disbarred.

Like it's that easy. It's similar to, say, getting a doctor or teacher fired. It would have be something extreme, blatant or cause celebre.

[Andrew Mason]

You asked for : "You have yet to show the view from Zapruder's position of the two men in the car as you have positioned them."

Nothing about some view from the SN window. Here then is the approximate view from the SN window for the frame Z223.

You won't be getting anything from me if you don't stop insinuating I would change models for different views in the same graphic. I have never done that, and such an underhanded tactic speaks to your "profession" as a defense attorney.

I was not insinuating anything. I just thought your angle to the SN was wrong.  Your drawings seemed incorrect because the angle to Zapruder is 40 degrees at z223 and if you apply that to your diagram it does not look like Zapruder's z223 view.  I was just trying to figure out where they are wrong.  Now that you have provided it, it appears that your limo model is inaccurate.  You have the rear seating compartment too far forward and a bit too long.  The roof support bar and glass side panel too is too far forward of JBC.

This shows the problem with your car model by comparing it to the actual measured dimensions provided by Hess & Eisenhardt:



You have the angle of the car to a line from the SN at 8.1 degrees, which is a bit too low (at z223) by about a degree, but since there is some uncertainty of about a degree as to the exact direction of the car heading at that point, I won't quibble.  At that direction, the angle of the sightline of Zapruder at z223 to the direction of the car is at most 40 degrees (I measure 39.3 degrees).  Your drawing puts that sight line (a 40 degree sightline to the left side of JBC's head passing just to the rear of the glass panel in front of JBC at z223) well to the right side of the head in your model. In order to make the green line to Zapruder's position pass to the left side of JBC's head you would need to move JBC to the right quite a bit as shown in the green arrow:

[Charles Collins]

I was not insinuating anything. I just thought your angle to the SN was wrong.  Your drawings seemed incorrect because the angle to Zapruder is 40 degrees at z223 and if you apply that to your diagram it does not look like Zapruder's z223 view.  I was just trying to figure out where they are wrong.  Now that you have provided it, it appears that your limo model is inaccurate.  You have the rear seating compartment too far forward and a bit too long.  The roof support bar and glass side panel too is too far forward of JBC.

This shows the problem with your car model by comparing it to the actual measured dimensions provided by Hess & Eisenhardt:



You have the angle of the car to a line from the SN at 8.1 degrees, which is a bit too low (at z223) by about a degree, but since there is some uncertainty of about a degree as to the exact direction of the car heading at that point, I won't quibble.  At that direction, the angle of the sightline of Zapruder at z223 to the direction of the car is at most 40 degrees (I measure 39.3 degrees).  Your drawing puts that sight line (a 40 degree sightline to the left side of JBC's head passing just to the rear of the glass panel in front of JBC at z223) well to the right side of the head in your model. In order to make the green line to Zapruder's position pass to the left side of JBC's head you would need to move JBC to the right quite a bit as shown in the green arrow:

Andrew, the glass panel you are referencing is sloping at an angle towards the centerline of the car. Therefore, from Zapruder’s angle, the rear edge of it appears to angle towards the front of the limo (from the bottom upwards) instead of appearing vertical. You have drawn your lines to the bottom corner of that glass panel. However JBC’s head is well above (in elevation) the bottom of the panel. Therefore you need to adjust your lines towards the front of the limo accordingly.