The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

I would allow a small margin of error when using sightlines involving the handrails on my model; I have not been able to measure them at the Henry Ford Museum.

Your hand-holds are 11 inches wide by my measurement, based on the full width of the car being 76.8 inches as set out in the H&E drawing.  The actual hand-holds are 10 inches as I measure them in various photos.

We also have to be careful in using old photos of the limo because it appears that the side window varied in width in different versions of the car. Yours appears to be accurate.

[Andrew Mason]

Well done. I tend to believe the measurements are probably correct. I used to draw mechanical drawings as part of my work. And I began doing this (by hand) well before computer aided design became common. Drawings are an important form of communication for all parties involved in a project. I can only guess that this drawing was used to communicate the dimensions which the investigators of the assassination requested. It doesn’t seem to me to be the type of drawing that the actual workers who built the limo would need or use. And I can only guess that whoever created this drawing for the assassination investigators might have taken an early version of their design drawings and placed some requested measurements on it for those investigators while not being concerned that the actual drawing scales off accurately to those dimensions. I believe that H&E was in the process of reworking that limo during the WC investigation. Therefore someone at H&E might have taken those measurements from the actual limo. I think that the reworked limo is at the Ford Museum in Michigan now. And I wonder what some actual measurements of the limo might tell us now.

Thanks for your revisions to the dimensions on the H&E drawing.  I did check the width of a 1961 Lincoln Continental here and the width is 78.6 inches. So much for the drawings!

I have done a comparison of my model vs. Jerry's and they are very close.  My side window back edge is correct but the window should be wider.  But Jerry's comparison is bogus. He has the arrow on my model going back to the back of the rear seat whereas on his it goes to about JFK's upper back. Here is the corrected comparison:

[Charles Collins]

Thanks for your revisions to the dimensions on the H&E drawing.  I did check the width of a 1961 Lincoln Continental here and the width is 78.6 inches. So much for the drawings!

I have done a comparison of my model vs. Jerry's and they are very close.  My side window back edge is correct but the window should be wider.  But Jerry's comparison is bogus. He has the arrow on my model going back to the back of the rear seat whereas on his it goes to about JFK's upper back. Here is the corrected comparison:

At first glance, it appears that two digits might be reversed, the drawing shows 76.8”. However, there are more issues with the drawing than just that.

According to this web page: https://www.mvlimo.com/limo-history-jfks-limo-1961-lincoln-continental/, the stock Lincoln was lengthened by 41.3”. According to your link (and others), a stock 1961 Lincoln Continental is 212.4” long overall. The sum of those two dimensions is 253.7”. The drawing shows 255.1” for the overall length. If we assume the actual lengthened dimension of 41.3” is correct, we have a length to width ratio of 253.7/78.6 = 3.2277. If we measure the actual dimensions of the drawing (as it prints at 100%) using a 3/4” = 1’-0” scale rule, we get 188.5” long by 56.5”. Therefore, the measured length to width ratio is 188.5/56.5 = 3.3362. This equates to the drawing’s length to width ratio being 1.03436 times what it appears that it should be. In other words, the drawing shows the limo being longer than it should be by 3.436%. And 3.436% of 253.7” is 8.717”, or close to 9” too long compared to what is believed to be a more accurate aspect ratio.

I do wonder if either Ford or someone who used to work at H&E still has drawings that they might have prepared for this Limo…

[Jerry Organ]

At first glance, it appears that two digits might be reversed, the drawing shows 76.8”. However, there are more issues with the drawing than just that.

According to this web page: https://www.mvlimo.com/limo-history-jfks-limo-1961-lincoln-continental/, the stock Lincoln was lengthened by 41.3”. According to your link (and others), a stock 1961 Lincoln Continental is 212.4” long overall. The sum of those two dimensions is 253.7”. The drawing shows 256.1” for the overall length. If we assume the actual lengthened dimension of 41.3” is correct, we have a length to width ratio of 253.7/78.6 = 3.2277. If we measure the actual dimensions of the drawing (as it prints at 100%) using a 3/4” = 1’-0” scale rule, we get 188.5” long by 56.5”. Therefore, the measured length to width ratio is 188.5/56.5 = 3.3362. This equates to the drawing’s length to width ratio being 1.03436 times what it appears that it should be. In other words, the drawing shows the limo being longer than it should be by 3.436%. And 3.436% of 253.7” is 8.717”, or close to 9” too long compared to what is believed to be a more accurate aspect ratio.

I do wonder if either Ford or someone who used to work at H&E still has drawings that they might have prepared for this Limo…

I have always wondered what were the exact points used for the width? Between the outside of the back doors or between the outside of the two door handles? The car tapers and the width changes. The same with the length; what were the exact points? The ends of the two bumpers? The tail-lights?

It's something that can be resolved by a professional scan or series of measurements to photographed indicated points that is, I suppose, to be done by government or a private firm working for a government inquiry.

The Knowles limousine drawing is a representation of features on the car, not their literal location by engineering standards. This drawing, done (in good faith) by a 20-year-old and the Cutler map with its errors were the mainstay for most of the trajectory analysis done for six decades.

[Andrew Mason]

At first glance, it appears that two digits might be reversed, the drawing shows 76.8”. However, there are more issues with the drawing than just that.

According to this web page: https://www.mvlimo.com/limo-history-jfks-limo-1961-lincoln-continental/, the stock Lincoln was lengthened by 41.3”. According to your link (and others), a stock 1961 Lincoln Continental is 212.4” long overall. The sum of those two dimensions is 253.7”. The drawing shows 256.1” for the overall length. If we assume the actual lengthened dimension of 41.3” is correct, we have a length to width ratio of 253.7/78.6 = 3.2277. If we measure the actual dimensions of the drawing (as it prints at 100%) using a 3/4” = 1’-0” scale rule, we get 188.5” long by 56.5”. Therefore, the measured length to width ratio is 188.5/56.5 = 3.3362. This equates to the drawing’s length to width ratio being 1.03436 times what it appears that it should be. In other words, the drawing shows the limo being longer than it should be by 3.436%. And 3.436% of 253.7” is 8.717”, or close to 9” too long compared to what is believed to be a more accurate aspect ratio.

I do wonder if either Ford or someone who used to work at H&E still has drawings that they might have prepared for this Limo…

The H&E drawing at 6 HSCA 50 shows the length as 255.1"   CE872 is difficult to read but looks like 21' 3" which would be 255".

[Zeon Mason]

Although it MAY be  possible that JBC could be hit by a 2nd shot from the same SE window gunman, after JFK was hit in the throat /neck atZ195-210, that 2nd shot could NOT have been fired by an MC rifle at Z224-226, because it’s only 1.5 secs from Z195-Z205), as well as that JFK has not yet leaned leftward atZ224-226.

The reaction of JBC right shoulder rotating counterclockwise and moving forward virtually in sync with Z224-226 movement of JFK , does not allow enough time for JFK to lean leftward so as to clear the  LOS for the SE 6th story window gunman to fire 1.5 sec later, hitting JBC at Z224-226.

It’s not until a few seconds  after Z224-226 and at that point  when JBC has completed his counterclockwise shoulder turn that began at Z224-226 , and he has raised his right hand clinching his hat and he is turning  in opposite rotation (clockwise) , attempting to look back at JFK. (This approx in the Z 275 -278 range)

So the way it looks to me, for Andrews scenario to work would require TWO gunman firing from 2 different angles  in the following sequence:

1st shot :Z195 ( between Betzner 186 and Willis Z205) and Willis girl almost fully stopped running). This shot, fired by a gunman (#1)at SE window,  hits JFK in the neck  and exits his throat and goes somewhere not hitting anyone else. There is some kind of delayed nervous system response by JFK which happens at Z224-226

2nd shot:  This shot fired by gunman (#2) from a different angle (SW window?) that has a clear LOS to JBC, unobstructed by JFK, takes a shot at about Z 224-226 that hits JBC in the right shoulder , causing the rotation of JBC. This shot is only 1.5 secs after the 1st shot fired by the 1st gunman at the SE window.

3rd shot at Z313 fired by either gunman , 5-6 seconds after 1st shot at Z195-Z205 or 2nd shot at Z224-226.


Problems :

A.The spacing of the 3 shots would be 1..2…..3
Which is opposite what 2/3rds witnesses heard as 1……2..3.

B. A bullet which passed thru JFKs neck and throat and then where did it go?

C. A solitary gunman 2nd independent shot to JBC is difficult to explain how JBC is being hit at Z224-226 , (because of the abruptly turning shoulder of JBC in sync with JFKs movement of arms and hands to throat ).  JFK is still obstructing the SE gunmans LOS to JBC at Z225-226.

D. Presuming the notion that the gunman at SE window had approx 5 minutes to study Elm
St , the tree obstruction and light pole, then why would he choose to shoot in the Z 195-205 range thru  branches of a tree even if the foliage was minimal?

E. The Z film does not appear to indicate that JFK is being hit at Z 195-205

F. If JFK 1st shot hit from Z210-220, then it’s even more improbable to be just 1 gunman using an MC rifle

[Jerry Organ]

Thanks for your revisions to the dimensions on the H&E drawing.  I did check the width of a 1961 Lincoln Continental here and the width is 78.6 inches. So much for the drawings!

I have done a comparison of my model vs. Jerry's and they are very close. 

Your model isn't remotely close to mine.

My side window back edge is correct but the window should be wider.

Sure. We just take your word for it. Yawn.

But Jerry's comparison is bogus. He has the arrow on my model going back to the back of the rear seat whereas on his it goes to about JFK's upper back.

You mean that thin slab in your model behind JFK's back is supposed to be the whole thickness of the seat-back? I thought it was cushioning on the front of the seat-back.



What's going to happen to JFK's position now that you have to triple the thickness of the seat-back in your SpongeBob SquarePants model? Move him forward?

Here is the corrected comparison:

Still waiting for that profile photo of JFK sitting normally in the motorcade with "all but the cervical spine is pressed into the seatback".

[Charles Collins]

The H&E drawing at 6 HSCA 50 shows the length as 255.1"   CE872 is difficult to read but looks like 21' 3" which would be 255".

Thank you for catching my error.  It really does look like 256.1” on the print out that I made.  But, it appears that the electronic copy of the image that I used isn’t the best quality.  I have corrected the post accordingly.