The First Shot

[John Tonkovich]

Go to the Nix Illusion thread to find out how clueless you are.

I don't take orders from you.
Now that we have that out of the way, I'll stay here.
I'll keep it simple.
You, Dan O'meara, have no idea what went on behind the sign.
You can only guess. Not know. Guess. A "guess" is proof of nothing.

[Dan O'meara]

I don't take orders from you.
Now that we have that out of the way, I'll stay here.
I'll keep it simple.
You, Dan O'meara, have no idea what went on behind the sign.
You can only guess. Not know. Guess. A "guess" is proof of nothing.

Three posts ago - THREE - you stated that I can't know what goes on behind the sign and I agreed!
Yet here you are ranting on about me making guesses about what's going on behind it.
You seem to have problems of some kind.
I was hoping to get some kind of debate going about an important issue - when the first shot occurred of the three audible shots the vast majority of ear-witnesses heard. Many researchers, yourself included, believe the first shot occurred before z223, it also has implications for the dictabelt findings.
Instead I got you and your incessant trolling.
I have presented argument after argument which lead me to the opinion that the first shot occurred at z223.
You have presented nothing to support your belief of a shot at z207 other than your wholesale, swallow-it-down, acceptance that the FBI knew when the first shot occurred.
You have not presented one grain of evidence to support this view.
And nor will you.

I'm not giving you orders about anything but I can't express how unwelcome your non-contribution is to both threads I've started recently.
I seem to hold some kind of fascination for you.

Why don't you contribute John?
Hold up your evidence for a first shot at z207 and see how it stacks up to what I've presented (I know that won't happen though as you it's not your style. It's a bit too 'upright')

[John Tonkovich]

Three posts ago - THREE - you stated that I can't know what goes on behind the sign and I agreed!
Yet here you are ranting on about me making guesses about what's going on behind it.
You seem to have problems of some kind.
I was hoping to get some kind of debate going about an important issue - when the first shot occurred of the three audible shots the vast majority of ear-witnesses heard. Many researchers, yourself included, believe the first shot occurred before z223, it also has implications for the dictabelt findings.
Instead I got you and your incessant trolling.
I have presented argument after argument which lead me to the opinion that the first shot occurred at z223.
You have presented nothing to support your belief of a shot at z207 other than your wholesale, swallow-it-down, acceptance that the FBI knew when the first shot occurred.
You have not presented one grain of evidence to support this view.
And nor will you.

I'm not giving you orders about anything but I can't express how unwelcome your non-contribution is to both threads I've started recently.
I seem to hold some kind of fascination for you.

Why don't you contribute John?
Hold up your evidence for a first shot at z207 and see how it stacks up to what I've presented (I know that won't happen though as you it's not your style. It's a bit too 'upright')

Two separate West surveys, for SS and FBI.
They also indicate third shot/hit directly in front of Altgens. As does Altgens testimony. Note Altgens location, documented by...Zfilm.

[Dan O'meara]

Two separate West surveys, for SS and FBI.
They also indicate third shot/hit directly in front of Altgens. As does Altgens testimony. Note Altgens location, documented by...Zfilm.

This is the situation, as I understand it. Please correct me on any detail I get wrong as a lot of this is guesswork and assumption.
At the behest of the SS/FBI Robert West surveyed part of Dealey Plaza from which he created a Plat Map (a representation of the information gained from the survey, very often a drawing or series of drawings).  West was then asked to project the impact points of three shots fired during the assassination.
In order to determine the impact points West had to be given at least three pieces of information concerning the shots:
The location from which the shots originated
The direction of each shot
Most importantly, as far as this thread is concerned, the timing of each shot.
None of this information could be magically deduced from a drawing of Dealey Plaza. West was given the information by the SS/FBI.
The only question of any relevance for this thread is - How did the SS/FBI determine the timings of the three shots at z207, z312 and z350?
I have asked you this question a number of times and you clearly don't know, but we can assume, as they were using z-frames, that the Zapruder film played a large part in their deductions.
Without knowing how the SS/FBI came to their conclusions about the timing of the shots you fully accept they are correct.
In this thread I have presented argument after argument leading to the conclusion that the first audible shot of three shots assumed to come from the TSBD occurred at z223.
You have not challenged any argument I've made, you've simply said West Survey, West Survey, West Survey.
You have fully accepted that the SS/FBI are correct and have refused to enter any kind of meaningful dialogue regarding the arguments I've presented.

Very early in this thread Joffrey made the point that z207 was a shot through the oak tree. Why do you accept this as being correct?

[John Tonkovich]

This is the situation, as I understand it. Please correct me on any detail I get wrong as a lot of this is guesswork and assumption.
At the behest of the SS/FBI Robert West surveyed part of Dealey Plaza from which he created a Plat Map (a representation of the information gained from the survey, very often a drawing or series of drawings).  West was then asked to project the impact points of three shots fired during the assassination.
In order to determine the impact points West had to be given at least three pieces of information concerning the shots:
The location from which the shots originated
The direction of each shot
Most importantly, as far as this thread is concerned, the timing of each shot.
None of this information could be magically deduced from a drawing of Dealey Plaza. West was given the information by the SS/FBI.
The only question of any relevance for this thread is - How did the SS/FBI determine the timings of the three shots at z207, z312 and z350?
I have asked you this question a number of times and you clearly don't know, but we can assume, as they were using z-frames, that the Zapruder film played a large part in their deductions.
Without knowing how the SS/FBI came to their conclusions about the timing of the shots you fully accept they are correct.
In this thread I have presented argument after argument leading to the conclusion that the first audible shot of three shots assumed to come from the TSBD occurred at z223.
You have not challenged any argument I've made, you've simply said West Survey, West Survey, West Survey.
You have fully accepted that the SS/FBI are correct and have refused to enter any kind of meaningful dialogue regarding the arguments I've presented.

Very early in this thread Joffrey made the point that z207 was a shot through the oak tree. Why do you accept this as being correct?

The oak tree.
You are getting warm. Not quite hot, but there is hope.
Might want to examine the autopsy report, and note the " irregular " wound to JFK's back.

[John Iacoletti]

Read through the thread John. I present testable arguments concerning my opinions (try it some time)
If you've got a critique of what I'm presenting let me have it.
Don't just snipe from the side-lines.
Get involved.
Let's hear what you have to think about things.
Let's test your arguments.

What's "testable" about "both Connally and JFK were shot through at z223" made as an absolute statement of fact based upon nothing other than "looks that way to me".

This is like you insisting that an ink-blot is an image of two dogs fighting and in order to "contribute", I have to make up a story about it being a squirrel on a fencepost instead of just pointing out that it's an inkblot.

[John Tonkovich]

What's "testable" about "both Connally and JFK were shot through at z223" made as an absolute statement of fact based upon nothing other than "looks that way to me".

This is like you insisting that an ink-blot is an image of two dogs fighting and in order to "contribute", I have to make up a story about it being a squirrel on a fencepost instead of just pointing out that it's an inkblot.

Ha! This reminds of the time, years ago, when one of the folks on a different "channel" opted to bring in a blood spatter expert (sic) who could "prove" there was a shot from the front, merely by examining....the Zfilm. That did not end well.

[Andrew Mason]

In Altgens 6 we see Agents Landis, Ready and Hickey looking over their right shoulders towards the TSBD, presumably in response to the sound of gunfire:


Landis - "I heard what sounded like the report of a high-powered rifle from behind me, over my right shoulder...", "My first glance was at the President, as I was practically looking in his direction anyway...", "I immediately returned my gaze, over my right shoulder."

Ready - "I heard what appeared to be fire crackers going off from my position. I immediately turned to my right rear trying to locate the source but was not able to determine the exact location."

Hickey - "I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear. I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything. "

Each agent describes their immediate reactions to hearing the first shot, turning to look over their right shoulders looking towards where they felt the sound came from. This is exactly what we see in Altgens 6. However, when we take a closer look at Zapruder we see
no meaningful reaction from them (Hickey looks briefly over the side of the car but then returns to his original position). The partial footage of the Z-film below focuses on the follow-up car. It runs from z133 to z207. At no point do we see any meaningful reaction from the agents mentioned above:



This is clear evidence the first shot did not take place before z207.

What do you make of the evidence of Phillip Willis who said that his z204 photo was taken a fraction of a second after the sound of the first shot?
What do you make of the turning of Rosemary Willis' head from z200-207:


What do you make of Jack Ready removing his right hand from the front hand-hold at z199 and beginning to turn his head to the right?  He said he turned around in response to the first shot: 18 H 749:
"I heard what appeared to be fire-crackers going off from my position. I immediately turned to my right rear trying to locate the source but was not able to determine the exact location."

What do you make of the statement and photograph of Hugh Betzner who said that his z186 photo was taken just before the first shot?

What do you make of the statement of Hughes that he stopped filming before the first shot? (that section of the film ends at about z180 at the latest)