The First Shot

[Denis Pointing]

Who is this   " Mason " you mention ?
It's a simple question.

Andrew Mason.  Reply #145 on: October 30, 2020, 05:58:56 PM
                        Reply #149 on: November 02, 2020, 03:53:24 PM

[Charles Collins]

IMO the only reactions that have any validity when examining the Z-film for shots are those of JFK and JBC after they have been hit. Everything else seems to be a matter of interpretation.
I also find the lack of reaction by the SS agents telling when compared to their obvious reactions in Altgens 6.
The article does have some interesting insights, particularly concerning the reactions of Landis and Ready but I couldn't disagree more with the following assessment:

"Ms. Willis’s sudden head turn towards the Book Depository in the first ½ second of the Zapruder film is the film’s earliest unambiguous evidence that the first shot happened before Z133."

"Unambiguous evidence"? Not convinced by that, just as I'm not convinced by a 'pre-Zapruder' shot for reasons outlined above.

"Puzzling as hell" - I'll definitely go for that 

One of the more unambiguous descriptions of when the first shot occurred comes from Victoria Adams. Here is a link to a thread I started a while back regarding this:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2647.0.html

The fact that Victoria’s position and the position of the tree that blocked her view are stationary positions is what makes her description less ambiguous than many others.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

One of the more unambiguous descriptions of when the first shot occurred comes from Victoria Adams. Here is a link to a thread I started a while back regarding this:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2647.0.html

The fact that Victoria’s position and the position of the tree that blocked her view are stationary positions is what makes her description less ambiguous than many others.

Just a hunch, a guess here but it seems to me that a shooter (whoever he was; I think it was Oswald) would have tried a shot before the Z222/223 film location of a separate shot. At that point, i.e., Z222/223 the limo is relatively far down Elm Street. Wouldn't a shooter have tried an easier/closer shot before that?

I just think - and it's just a guess - that a first shot would have been wiser earlier. Why wait until Z222 for the first try? Z222 make no sense to me as the first shot.

That (ahem) brilliance on my part tells us nothing about when that shot took place. If it was around Z133 then there were three shots in about 10 seconds. Meaning the slow reaction by the SS was indefensible.

Shorter: this is a worthless post, isn't it <g>?

[Charles Collins]

Just a hunch, a guess here but it seems to me that a shooter (whoever he was; I think it was Oswald) would have tried a shot before the Z222/223 film location of a separate shot. At that point, i.e., Z222/223 the limo is relatively far down Elm Street. Wouldn't a shooter have tried an easier/closer shot before that?

I just think - and it's just a guess - that a first shot would have been wiser earlier. Why wait until Z222 for the first try? Z222 make no sense to me as the first shot.

That (ahem) brilliance on my part tells us nothing about when that shot took place. If it was around Z133 then there were three shots in about 10 seconds. Meaning the slow reaction by the SS was indefensible.

Shorter: this is a worthless post, isn't it <g>?

Steve, the first shot might have been inadvertent, in my opinion. I say this after studying the ergonomics of the sniper’s nest in my 3-D model. It appears to me that both  the conduit closest to the window, and the box on top of the stack under the window, would have the potential to cause the inadvertent shot. And if this was the case, then the apparent bullet marks on and near the manhole cover on the south side of Elm Street might have been where it hit first. Then it could have impacted the curb next to what’s his name on Main Street. Just my opinion!

[Dan O'meara]

Just a hunch, a guess here but it seems to me that a shooter (whoever he was; I think it was Oswald) would have tried a shot before the Z222/223 film location of a separate shot. At that point, i.e., Z222/223 the limo is relatively far down Elm Street. Wouldn't a shooter have tried an easier/closer shot before that?

I just think - and it's just a guess - that a first shot would have been wiser earlier. Why wait until Z222 for the first try? Z222 make no sense to me as the first shot.

That (ahem) brilliance on my part tells us nothing about when that shot took place. If it was around Z133 then there were three shots in about 10 seconds. Meaning the slow reaction by the SS was indefensible.

Shorter: this is a worthless post, isn't it <g>?

I think this a really important point Steve. It boils down to the oak tree that partly obscures the route of the Presidential limo from the sniper's nest. Possibly Charles can help out here as I can't find a reliable estimation of when the limo emerged from behind the oak tree from in terms of z-frames (as seen from the sniper's nest). I suspect an assassin, firing from the sniper's nest would take the first shot as soon as the limo was clear of the oak tree, but I'm not 100% sure when this is.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

I don't expect the Secret Service to have act uniformly and instantaneously. I think there's some hindsight being unfairly applied here.

There was a fleeting chance the first loud noise really was a backfire or firecracker. The agents were familiar with firearms but not on a everyday basis. Sometimes when you have a preference for an outcome (ie: the first loud noise not being a gunshot) it colors your perception.

Like how Biden supporters (like myself) believed he was going to have an easier night, that there was no way Trump was going to take all five or six of the big states that he needed; but lo-and-behold he did.

Ten seconds over six is an indictment of the SS. Do I think they should have saved JFK? No, but there should have been a quicker reaction. Yes, easy for me sitting on my butt to say that.

As to Biden: I voted for him (Harris is completely unqualified for high office) but for a Republican Senator, i.e., divided government. That looks to be what we got. I didn't expect a Biden blowout but it looks like it's going to be something around 272 or so. He's going to have to moderate his policies if that holds up. The hard left (or hard right) won't like it but too bad.

As to the electorate: our liberal press and elites simply cannot think beyond race. They think black and Hispanics are over there; and whites over here. There's much more diversity within those groups than the liberal/left realizes or wants. That's a great sign for the country. A white party and a non-white party is not good for the country.

[Charles Collins]

I think this a really important point Steve. It boils down to the oak tree that partly obscures the route of the Presidential limo from the sniper's nest. Possibly Charles can help out here as I can't find a reliable estimation of when the limo emerged from behind the oak tree from in terms of z-frames (as seen from the sniper's nest). I suspect an assassin, firing from the sniper's nest would take the first shot as soon as the limo was clear of the oak tree, but I'm not 100% sure when this is.

Dan, looking at Don Roberdeau’s map, it appears to me that JFK would have been behind the tree between approximately Z165 to Z207. I hope that helps.

[Dan O'meara]

One of the more unambiguous descriptions of when the first shot occurred comes from Victoria Adams. Here is a link to a thread I started a while back regarding this:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2647.0.html

The fact that Victoria’s position and the position of the tree that blocked her view are stationary positions is what makes her description less ambiguous than many others.

Hey Charles,
This thread is kind of inspired by your own thread. I was working on something else at the time but started to come across witness statements from people who claimed the first shot occurred as the Pres. limo was, more or less, in front of them. These witnesses were a lot further down Elm Street than the limo at z133 and I was trying to clarify what was going on which has led to this thread. Obviously, the evidence, as I've interpreted it has taken me towards a very different conclusion than your own.
In terms of Adam's description, I find it quite vague in terms of when the first shot took place after the limo disappeared from view. Of the four women stood at the window, I feel that Dorothy Garner's statement contains the most useful information:

"I recall that moments following the passing of the Presidential car I heard three loud reports which I first thought to be fireworks but only seconds later realized that something has happened on the street below although at the time of the shots, the Presidential car was out of view behind a tree."