The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

Dan, looking at Don Roberdeau’s map, it appears to me that JFK would have been behind the tree between approximately Z165 to Z207. I hope that helps.

The various arguments I've presented in this thread have led me to a first shot at z223. Assuming this came from the sniper's nest the shooter would have approximately one second to take aim and fire after the limo emerges from behind the oak tree (at z207). I don't really know about these things but it seems reasonable to me.

[Charles Collins]

The various arguments I've presented in this thread have led me to a first shot at z223. Assuming this came from the sniper's nest the shooter would have approximately one second to take aim and fire after the limo emerges from behind the oak tree (at z207). I don't really know about these things but it seems reasonable to me.

I agree with your reasoning, but it appears to me that that was the second shot.

[Dan O'meara]

Ten seconds over six is an indictment of the SS. Do I think they should have saved JFK? No, but there should have been a quicker reaction. Yes, easy for me sitting on my butt to say that.

There was an interesting section in the article you posted describing how the agents reacted:

"One witness’s recollections go far in helping us understand why the Secret Service reacted as it did. Landis, standing on the right rear running board of the Secret Service car just behind Kennedy’s limousine, explained his thinking process during the shooting in exhaustive detail. He wrote that he “heard what sounded like the report of a high-powered rifle” and that “there was no question in my mind what it was.” Yet doubts immediately began to sap his initial certitude.  Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.” Landis recalled that Agent John Ready, in front of Landis on the running board, asked him “What was it? A firecracker?” Landis answered, “I don’t know; I don’t see any smoke.” Landis then thought that the sound might have been a tire blowout; he looked at the right front tire of the president’s limousine and saw that it was intact. He could not see the right rear tire from his position. Landis then saw Kennedy’s head “split open” and realized that the first loud sound had been a gunshot, just as he initially thought."


They reacted immediately but had nothing to go on, nothing to react to. A few seconds passed and it was too late. There was nothing they could have done. My only criticism is of the driver, Greer, who I feel should not have slowed down to a walking pace at the moment of the headshot.

[Charles Collins]

There was an interesting section in the article you posted describing how the agents reacted:

"One witness’s recollections go far in helping us understand why the Secret Service reacted as it did. Landis, standing on the right rear running board of the Secret Service car just behind Kennedy’s limousine, explained his thinking process during the shooting in exhaustive detail. He wrote that he “heard what sounded like the report of a high-powered rifle” and that “there was no question in my mind what it was.” Yet doubts immediately began to sap his initial certitude.  Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.” Landis recalled that Agent John Ready, in front of Landis on the running board, asked him “What was it? A firecracker?” Landis answered, “I don’t know; I don’t see any smoke.” Landis then thought that the sound might have been a tire blowout; he looked at the right front tire of the president’s limousine and saw that it was intact. He could not see the right rear tire from his position. Landis then saw Kennedy’s head “split open” and realized that the first loud sound had been a gunshot, just as he initially thought."


They reacted immediately but had nothing to go on, nothing to react to. A few seconds passed and it was too late. There was nothing they could have done. My only criticism is of the driver, Greer, who I feel should not have slowed down to a walking pace at the moment of the headshot.

Exactly! The same thing can be said for the other occupants of the limo. (see the head turns and quizzical expressions referenced in the thread about Victoria Adams that I linked to earlier in this thread).

[Steve M. Galbraith]

The training is probably much better today. For example, there probably was little evasive driving training with a limousine in 1963.

Well, Biden said he is and will be moderate. The only "radical" thing the Obama Administration did was Affordable Care. Trump sees himself as a moderate, so anything short of racist dog-whistles and not raising taxes on billionaires and large corporations will get Biden labelled a Communist.

Trump took most of the Confederacy, the Civil War border states and upper North-Midwest. In other words, those areas that spawn White Power groups and have a nasty history of treatment towards minorities. His strength in other areas of the country was in the rural areas, not metropolitan, and he slipped among suburban women.

Jerry: You're a dinosaur leftist. Your ideology is bankrupt, out of date, and is rejected by the vast majority of Americans. You can't see people; you see race and argue backwards from there. Check the date on your computer; it says 2020 not 1860 or even 1960.

You're welcome to viewing things like you do and I'm welcome to calling it out for the neanderthal thinking that it is.

[Dan O'meara]

Exactly! The same thing can be said for the other occupants of the limo. (see the head turns and quizzical expressions referenced in the thread about Victoria Adams that I linked to earlier in this thread).

I know what you're saying Charles but it's not the same thing. In Altgens 6 Landis, Ready and Hickey are twisted around looking behind them, it's an extreme, co-ordinated reaction by all three and they each testify it is a specific reaction to the sound of the first shot.
It's not just head turns, these are to be expected and should not be used to support the identification of a gunshot.

[Charles Collins]

I know what you're saying Charles but it's not the same thing. In Altgens 6 Landis, Ready and Hickey are twisted around looking behind them, it's an extreme, co-ordinated reaction by all three and they each testify it is a specific reaction to the sound of the first shot.
It's not just head turns, these are to be expected and should not be used to support the identification of a gunshot.

Altgens 6 was taken at approximately Z255. This is about 1.75 seconds after Z223 (when you say that you believe that the first shot occurred). If your hypothesis is correct, then it means that the following conversation and actions took place in that 1.75 seconds:

“Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.” Landis recalled that Agent John Ready, in front of Landis on the running board, asked him “What was it? A firecracker?” Landis answered, “I don’t know; I don’t see any smoke.” Landis then thought that the sound might have been a tire blowout; he looked at the right front tire of the president’s limousine and saw that it was intact. He could not see the right rear tire from his position. Landis then saw Kennedy’s head “split open” and realized that the first loud sound had been a gunshot, just as he initially thought."

No way, Jose’!!!

[Dan O'meara]

Altgens 6 was taken at approximately Z255. This is about 1.75 seconds after Z223 (when you say that you believe that the first shot occurred). If your hypothesis is correct, then it means that the following conversation and actions took place in that 1.75 seconds:

“Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.” Landis recalled that Agent John Ready, in front of Landis on the running board, asked him “What was it? A firecracker?” Landis answered, “I don’t know; I don’t see any smoke.” Landis then thought that the sound might have been a tire blowout; he looked at the right front tire of the president’s limousine and saw that it was intact. He could not see the right rear tire from his position. Landis then saw Kennedy’s head “split open” and realized that the first loud sound had been a gunshot, just as he initially thought."

No way, Jose’!!!

I'm a bit lost Charles.
Why does any of that conversation have to take place before the Altgens pic?
Why isn't it a pic of the opening sentence - "“Landis elaborated that he looked around, “observed nothing unusual,” and “began to think to think the sound had been that of a firecracker.”
The reference to Kennedy's head splitting open is obviously something that took place after the Altgens pic.
Why would you say that happened in the 1.75 seconds between z223 and z255?