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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 169238 times)

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2020, 05:37:46 PM »
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Hi John, really confused by your response. Firstly, I am familiar with Connally's WC testimony and the West survey (through Tom Purvis on "the other channel"). I asked what z-frame corresponds to Connally being shot and you replied:
                                   Z312
                                   Z350
You seem to be implying Connally was shot in the back whilst lying on Nellie's lap. After the headshot JBC rolls to his left to reveal blood streaming down his back. By z245 Connally has already twisted in his seat so much it is impossible for him to be shot in the back from anywhere close to the TSBD and at no point after does he turn his back in a way that such a shot would be possible.
In his WC testimony Connally states he heares the shot, turns to look over his right shoulder then, as he is turning to look over his left he is shot. Zapruder shows nothing of the sort. Around z 160 he looks to his left then turns to his right looking at the people on the street. He never changes this position until he is shot at z223:



This is the first of the three shots assumed to be fired from the TSBD. As Zeon hints at, a number of witnesses see JFK slumping to his side after this first shot. None as certain as Carl Brandt:


https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/ea06nf0Ktgg

{click on Dave Reitzes)
Connally is upright at z275
And looking at Kennedy.
Where is this blood on Connally's back you speak of?
Z frames?
( I don't know how you can claim to see that kind of detail in the Zfilm)

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2020, 05:37:46 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2020, 07:34:40 PM »
Connally is upright at z275
And looking at Kennedy.
Where is this blood on Connally's back you speak of?
Z frames?
( I don't know how you can claim to see that kind of detail in the Zfilm)

The clip below is from z323 to z354. It shows JBC rolling to his left after the headshot. Towards the end of the clip (approx z350-354) there appears to be "blood" near the top of his armpit area (IMO)



I agree JBC is sat up looking at Kennedy at z275 but JFK is sat up as well and there is no question he's been shot. For me the clip in the previous post shows both men reacting in an extreme way. In Zapruder, just before they pass behind the Stemmons sign JBC is calmly scanning the crowd to his right. As he emerges from behind the sign he is exactly the same (z223), he then suddenly starts 'thrashing around'.
As the Z-film rolls on JBC stops thrashing, twists in his seat to face JFK then "swoons" into Nellies lap. IMO the fact he kind of collapses into Nellies lap is a strong indication he has already been shot.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 07:40:42 AM by Dan O'meara »

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2020, 08:37:39 PM »
The clip below is from z323 to z354. It shows TBC rolling to his left after the headshot. Towards the end of the clip (approx z350-354) there appears to be "blood" near the top of his armpit area (IMO)



I agree TBC is sat up looking at Kennedy at z275 but JFK is sat up as well and there is no question he's been shot. For me the clip in the previous post shows both men reacting in an extreme way. In Zapruder, just before they pass behind the Stemmons sign TBC is calmly scanning the crowd to his right. As he emerges from behind the sign he is exactly the same (z223), he then suddenly starts 'thrashing around'.
As the Z-film rolls on TBC stops thrashing, twists in his seat to face JFK then "swoons" into Nellies lap. IMO the fact he kind of collapses into Nellies lap is a strong indication he has already been shot.
West Survey.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2020, 08:37:39 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2020, 08:47:00 PM »
West Survey.

That's way too cryptic for me.
Do you agree that looks like blood on Connally's back?

Offline John Tonkovich

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2020, 09:12:25 PM »
That's way too cryptic for me.
Do you agree that looks like blood on Connally's back?
When?
Why are you trying to decode minutae on the z film, when the points of impact from the three shots were established for SS, FBI, etc., by Mr West ?

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2020, 09:12:25 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2020, 11:11:22 PM »
When?
Why are you trying to decode minutae on the z film, when the points of impact from the three shots were established for SS, FBI, etc., by Mr West ?
I'm not 'decoding minutae'. Please explain how Mr West knew the timing of the shots in order to establish the points of impact.

In terms trying to determine when the first shot occurred the testimony of Rufus Youngblood is of interest. The following excerpts are taken from his report (11/29/63):

"The motorcade then made a left turn, and the sidewalk crowds were beginning to diminish in size. I observed a grassy plot to my right in back of the small crowd of bystanders on the sidewalk- some tall buildings- a downhill grade ahead where the street went under what appeared to be a railroad overpass. We were about two car lengths behind the Presidential follow-up car at this time.

I heard an explosion--I was not sure whether it was a firecracker, bomb, bullet, or other explosion. I looked at whatever I could quickly survey, and could not see anything which would indicate the origin of this noise. I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the Presidential follow-up car were abnormal. So I turned around and hit the Vice President on the shoulder and hollered, get down, and then looked around again and saw more of this movement, and so I proceeded to go to the back seat and get on top of him.
I then heard two more shots..." (my emphasis)

Youngblood states that after the first 'explosion' he looked around to find 'the origin of the noise'. When he turned back he noticed unnatural movement in the Presidential limo and it's follow-up car. Looking at the Z-film below, which runs to z207, there is no such abnormal movement:



So when does this 'abnormal' movement occur? Examination of Altgens 6 seems to answer this question. Obviously agents Hickey, Ready and Landis have now reacted and are looking "rear right", but looking closely at the Vice President's car reveals something quite interesting - Youngblood, sitting in the front passenger seat (left) has yet to react!:



'Ladybird' Johnson and Sen. Yarborough appear to be smiling away without a care in the world. If, as I am asserting, the first shot occurred at z223, this picture was taken between 1.5 to 2 seconds after that shot. The next shot, the infamous headshot, is about 3 seconds away (assuming Altgens 6 is z255). Youngblood begins his reaction to the first shot before the second shot, presumably at some point in the three seconds after Altgens 6.
From this it seems reasonable to assume that the 'abnormal' movement has just occurred in Altgens 6 (this is supported by the testimonies of Landis, Ready and Hickey). Youngblood is noticing this movement and is just about to sound his warning. It is also reasonable to assume from this evidence that the first shot is the one that causes JFK's hands to move to his throat as seen in Altgens 6.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 11:12:09 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2020, 11:26:43 PM »
Who’s TBC?

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2020, 11:36:55 PM »
Who’s TBC?
;D

My bad.
JBC - John Bowden Connally
not TBC - to be confirmed

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2020, 11:36:55 PM »