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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 158428 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #624 on: January 27, 2021, 12:29:58 AM »
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I don't know.  Perhaps his brain was overwhelmed with information coming from other parts of his body at that instant in time just after he was hit.

You come up with some baloney about why he didn't hear the shot that hit him and when questioned about just say "Don't know" and then continue to waffle the same baloney:
"Perhaps his brain was overwhelmed with information coming from other parts of his body..."
You're just making things up. What kind of debate is this? Perhaps pixies sprinkled pixy-dust on his dreams and that's why he didn't hear the shot that hit him ( ;))

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All we know is that JBC said he was hit by it but did not hear it.  What evidence do you have that JBC was making that up, that he really heard it and recalled hearing it?

How can I provide evidence of someone making something up?
I don't think JBC is making anything up but I don't know that for a fact.

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There are not a large number of witnesses to draw from - ie those who get shot in the chest by a distant rifle shot and survive.  So all I have is JBC and the well known sniper adage "if you hear the shot you were not the target". The facts are that JBC said he felt but did not hear the shot that hit him in the back, that he heard the first shot but that he did not feel it hit him, and that he heard and felt the effects of the third shot (brain material covering them).  What evidence do you have that he heard the second shot?  If he was hit by the first shot in the back, why did he not mention that he heard a shot afterward that was other than the one that caused the spray of brain matter on him?

This is quite garbled but I'll try and work through it:

I ask, "What evidence do you have that the auditory brain function stops after being shot?
You answer, "if you hear the shot you were not the target"
Utter garbage.

"What evidence do you have that he heard the second shot?"

I'm not sure what you mean. Aren't you arguing that he didn't hear the second shot?
In terms of testimonial evidence JBC is consistent in terms of the time gap between hearing the shot and becoming aware he had been hit:

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.

JBC, a man seemingly familiar with guns and rifles, describes the gap in time between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is hit, as similar to the time gap between the shots of an automatic rifle. Is this less than one second? - a "very, very brief span of time."
The following is lifted from the Pat Speers website -

(12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) "When Governor Connally was asked about the elapsed time between the first and last shot he remarked “Fast, my God it was fast. It seemed like a split second. Just that quick” and he snapped his fingers three times rapidly to illustrate the time and said “unbelievably quick…"

Is JBC describing two different shots that occur a 'split second' apart?
Is that what you are proposing?
Or is he describing hearing a shot and then being aware of being shot a 'split second' later.
This would explain why he only heard one shot.
That he might be mistaken about assuming a second shot is perfectly understandable.

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I am not sure what you mean by corroboration. The fact that both said it in their testimony is established by the WC transcripts. You don't need corroboration for that. The zfilm shows Nellie leaning forward as if to speak to JBC just before the head shot. Both said that she said it over and over after the head shot.  What corroboration are you looking for?

You say that both John and Nellie Connally described Nellie comforting JBC before and after the headshot.
When you are talking about what people are saying it is customary to provide the actual quotes.
In this instance that would be the quotes of John Connally describing Nellie comforting him before and after the headshot.
And the quotes of Nellie Connaly where she describes comforting JBC before and after the headshot.
I'm not sure what you are having trouble understanding.

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Are you saying that there were only two shots then?

No.
Are you saying the first two shots were close together?
 

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #624 on: January 27, 2021, 12:29:58 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #625 on: January 27, 2021, 12:57:00 AM »
And the vast majority of witness Heard the Last 2 shots closer together..

And at least 2/3 rds majority of earwitness heard 3 shots, of which Harold Norman the witness right beneath the SE 6th floor TSBD gunman, concurred.

Not only that, but Norman heard the 3 shots fired is approx 4 secs as per his camera recorded interviews using the “boom, klak, klak “ sequence

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #626 on: January 27, 2021, 01:50:04 AM »
z250-270.

Just to clarify -

I was pointing out the incredibly short time gap JBC reports between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is shot. He describes it, in many different ways, as a 'split second':

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.

JBC, a man seemingly familiar with guns and rifles, describes the gap in time between hearing the first shot and being aware that he is hit, as similar to the time gap between the shots of an automatic rifle. Is this less than one second? - a "very, very brief span of time."
The following is lifted from the Pat Speers website -

(12-13-63 FBI report on a 12-11 interview, CD188, p. 3-5) "When Governor Connally was asked about the elapsed time between the first and last shot he remarked “Fast, my God it was fast. It seemed like a split second. Just that quick” and he snapped his fingers three times rapidly to illustrate the time and said “unbelievably quick…"


A very, very brief span of time
Two or three people involved
Automatic rifle
My God it was fast
A split second
Snapped fingers three times rapidly
Unbelievably quick

The point that JBC was describing a 'split second' between the two events - hearing the shot and awareness of being shot - could hardly be clearer. You avoided this point by trying to change the subject because it causes such great difficulties for your own model:

"You are assuming that JBC was hit by the first shot!!  He said he was not because he was able to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK. Nellie said he turned around and uttered "Oh, no, no, no" after the first shot and that the second shot hit him in the back as he was turned around to the right."

I ignored the fact you'd totally blanked the point I had made because I was interested in this sentence - "He said he was not because he was able to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK."

JBC couldn't have been hit by the first shot because he had time "to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK."
Because I accepted JBC's testimony that he first became aware of being shot @z234 I knew for a fact there was nowhere in the Z-film, before z234, that JBC made any kind of attempt to look back at JFK. So I asked you:

"Please give the frame in the Z-film where JBC is trying to "check on JFK".

And you answered: "z250-270."



Looking at the clip above, specifically at frames z250 -z270, we see JBC turning round in his seat to face JFK.
According to your model JBC hasn't been shot yet. This is the moment in JBC's WC testimony when he states:

"I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye."

The corner of his eye?? He's looking directly at the president. If his goal is to look at the president how can he not be seeing him if he's looking directly at him?
Whatever the case, it's now that your model really disintegrates:

"...failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

This does not happen in the Z-film. After looking directly at JFK there is no point at which JBC tries to look over his left shoulder "into the back seat". In the many statements (and there are many) JBC is consistent in stating that at the moment he was shot he was turning to his left.
This does not happen after z270

JBC states that immediately after being hit he cried out "Oh, no, no, no" but in the Z-film this happens before he has even turned round in his seat. It has already been established that JBC cried this out after he was shot, the one example you gave to try and muddy the water from the Life article ended up confirming he cried this after being shot as the article itself was about JBC positively identifying z234 as the frame he was shot!

After this JBC doubles up in his seat, This can be seen happening before z270 and therefore before he is shot according to your model. In fact both Nellie Connally and JBC describe him turning sharply to the right and crumpling in his seat. It is this that we are seeing between z250 - z270, not JBC responding to the first shot.

After this Nellie pulls JBC towards her.

It's amazing how many times you've wheeled out the Connally's to make some dubious point or another but a closer examination of their testimonies and how they fit with the Z-film reveals the near impossibility of your proposed shot at Z271. In order to make it work you have to ignore virtually every part of their testimonies apart from the one piece that seems to agree with your doomed model - JBC turning to the right.

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If the second shot was the head shot, perhaps you could explain:

1. why JBC suddenly starts sailing forward from z272-278
2. why his hat changes position in his hand between z271 and z272
3. why Greer said he turned to look back immediately after the second shot and saw JBC falling back onto his wife. This occurs from z278-290
4. why JFK's hair flies from z273-275 but no one else's hair moves.  According to Hickey, this occurs at the time of the second shot just before the head shot.

1. JBC doesn't sail forward in any way, shape or form?
2. His hat doesn't change position
3. Greer is FoS. This has been solidly established yet you keep wheeling him out.
4. The wind blows his hair. Hickey is describing the headshot, not the slight ruffle of JFK's hair you put so much on.

Your model lies in tatters.
There is only one weakness in the model I am presenting (in regard to JBC's statements) and it is a significant one - if the first shot JBC hears is the same shot that hits him, and the second shot he hears is the headshot - what happens to the third shot? JBC describes the shots as "very loud" noises, so how come he doesn't hear the third shot?
The only answer I can give is that in the immediate aftermath of the headshot JBC finds himself somewhat occupied:



« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 11:49:07 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #626 on: January 27, 2021, 01:50:04 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #627 on: January 27, 2021, 01:59:54 AM »
And the vast majority of witness Heard the Last 2 shots closer together..

A lot of witnesses heard that. Not "the vast majority"

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And at least 2/3 rds majority of earwitness heard 3 shots, of which Harold Norman the witness right beneath the SE 6th floor TSBD gunman, concurred.

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle."

This is from his affidavit (12/04/63)

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Not only that, but Norman heard the 3 shots fired is approx 4 secs as per his camera recorded interviews using the “boom, klak, klak “ sequence

Can you provide this sequence.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #628 on: January 27, 2021, 07:07:34 PM »
The point that JBC was describing a 'split second' between the two events - hearing the shot and awareness of being shot - could hardly be clearer. You avoided this point by trying to change the subject because it causes such great difficulties for your own model:
No. I looked at all the evidence. 

If he was hit in the back by the first shot he would have felt being hit a split second BEFORE he heard the sound of the first shot because the bullet arrives first. 

Furthermore, Nellie said he was hit on the second shot. Greer said the second shot was just before he turned back the first time.  Gayle Newman who was right there said that JBC appeared to be hit on the second shot.

JBC described a time lapse, which he referred to as a "split second", in which he recognized the sound as a rifle shot, formed the view that an assassination was unfolding, having enough time to turn around to see JFK, conclude from what he saw that the President had slumped and then decided to turn to the left to get a better look BEFORE he was hit in the back.  That is not possible to do in one a second let alone negative 100 ms.  He was not a clock measuring seconds. So his reference to a "split second" is a subjective impression and should only be given weight if it fit with all the rest of the evidence.  It doesn't.

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I ignored the fact you'd totally blanked the point I had made because I was interested in this sentence - "He said he was not because he was able to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK."

JBC couldn't have been hit by the first shot because he had time "to turn to his right and look back to check on JFK."
Because I accepted JBC's testimony that he first became aware of being shot @z234 I knew for a fact there was nowhere in the Z-film, before z234, that JBC made any kind of attempt to look back at JFK. So I asked you:

"Please give the frame in the Z-film where JBC is trying to "check on JFK".

And you answered: "z250-270."

Looking at the clip above, specifically at frames z250 -z270, we see JBC turning round in his seat to face JFK.
According to your model JBC hasn't been shot yet. This is the moment in JBC's WC testimony when he states:

"I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye."

The corner of his eye?? He's looking directly at the president. If his goal is to look at the president how can he not be seeing him if he's looking directly at him?
He is not looking directly at him. JFK has moved left. JBC's face cannot be facing directly backward let alone to further around to face JFK - try it. So he is using peripheral vision.

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Whatever the case, it's now that your model really disintegrates:

"...failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

This does not happen in the Z-film. After looking directly at JFK there is no point at which JBC tries to look over his left shoulder "into the back seat". In the many statements (and there are many) JBC is consistent in stating that at the moment he was shot he was turning to his left.
This does not happen after z270

JBC states that immediately after being hit he cried out "Oh, no, no, no" but in the Z-film this happens before he has even turned round in his seat. It has already been established that JBC cried this out after he was shot, the one example you gave to try and muddy the water from the Life article ended up confirming he cried this after being shot as the article itself was about JBC positively identifying z234 as the frame he was shot!
That is the problem. No one asked him or Nellie where he said "no, no, no" in the zfilm.  Nellie said he said it before he was hit.  We can see when he says it (z245 - z250 or so).

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After this JBC doubles up in his seat.  This can be seen happening before z270 and therefore before he is shot according to your model. In fact both Nellie Connally and JBC describe him turning sharply to the right and crumpling in his seat. It is this that we are seeing between z250 - z270, not JBC responding to the first shot.
Doubling up ever?  I don't see that.  Certainly not before z278 which is just before he falls back onto his wife.  It is apparent that JBC's mind was not focused on his surroundings or his position after he was hit so I don't think we can attribute much weight to what he said about such things after he was hit where it is at odds with the rest of the evidence.

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It's amazing how many times you've wheeled out the Connally's to make some dubious point or another but a closer examination of their testimonies and how they fit with the Z-film reveals the near impossibility of your proposed shot at Z271. In order to make it work you have to ignore virtually every part of their testimonies apart from the one piece that seems to agree with your doomed model - JBC turning to the right.

1. JBC doesn't sail forward in any way, shape or form?
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2. His hat doesn't change position
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3. Greer is FoS. This has been solidly established yet you keep wheeling him out.
So he did not see JBC falling back when he looked back from z280-290? Or he did not do it in response to hearing the second shot just before that?
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4. The wind blows his hair. Hickey is describing the headshot, not the slight ruffle of JFK's hair you put so much on.

Hickey was not describing the head shot.  He said that the second shot appeared to miss him and just cause his hair to fly forward. He said the third did impact the President: (18 H 43):
  • At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again.
We can see the hair fly forward from z273 to z276:

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Your model lies in tatters.
There is only one weakness in the model I am presenting (in regard to JBC's statements) and it is a significant one - if the first shot JBC hears is the same shot that hits him, and the second shot he hears is the headshot - what happens to the third shot? JBC describes the shots as "very loud" noises, so how come he doesn't hear the third shot?
The only answer I can give is that in the immediate aftermath of the headshot JBC finds himself somewhat occupied:

That's a pretty big weakness. Particularly when so many confidently recalled that the head shot was the last.  Do you have any explanation why the shooter (Oswald) would want to risk another shot after such an obvious hit on the target?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 07:11:22 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #628 on: January 27, 2021, 07:07:34 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #629 on: January 27, 2021, 09:17:04 PM »
If he was hit in the back by the first shot he would have felt being hit a split second BEFORE he heard the sound of the first shot because the bullet arrives first.

You are confusing when JBC was actually hit and when he realised he was hit. They are two completely different things.
His reflex reactions to being hit do not require conscious thought but being aware you are hit and being able to remember it does require conscious thought.

The bullet would strike JBC first
Then the sound would reach him
Then he would become aware of being shot

"Human thought takes time to form, and so the “right now” that we’re experiencing inside our skulls is always a little later than what’s going on in the outside world. It takes 500 milliseconds, or half a second, for sensory information from the outside world to be incorporated into conscious experience."

[https://nymag.com/speed/2016/12/what-is-the-speed-of-thought.html#:~:text=Human%20thought%20takes%20time%20to,be%20incorporated%20into%20conscious%20experience.]

JBC is hit
100 milliseconds later the sound of the shot arrives
400 milliseconds after that JBC becomes aware of being shot

In terms of z-frames the difference between being shot and becoming aware of it is approximately 9 frames.
JBC is positive he is struck @z234.
If this is when he first becomes aware of being shot, the actual strike would've been around z225 and he would have heard the shot around z227

Just to reiterate - JBC would not have been aware of being shot before he heard the shot

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JBC described a time lapse, which he referred to as a "split second", in which he recognized the sound as a rifle shot, formed the view that an assassination was unfolding, having enough time to turn around to see JFK, conclude from what he saw that the President had slumped and then decided to turn to the left to get a better look BEFORE he was hit in the back.  That is not possible to do in one a second let alone negative 100 ms.  He was not a clock measuring seconds. So his reference to a "split second" is a subjective impression and should only be given weight if it fit with all the rest of the evidence.  It doesn't.

A very, very brief span of time
Two or three people involved
Automatic rifle
My God it was fast
A split second
Snapped fingers three times rapidly
Unbelievably quick

Over and over again JBC describes how quickly both events happened - hearing the shot and being aware he was shot.
You're right, he's not a clock measuring seconds so he has to use language to express the speed of things and he is perfectly clear time and time again - it was a split second, that is to say, the gap between hearing the shot and being aware he was shot was less than a second.
In your model you have a gap of more than 4 seconds between the first two shots. In order to make that work you have to throw out this part of JBC's testimony or accuse him of not understanding what he was saying (but you do)
As we will see, this is not the only part of his testimony you have to throw out.

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He is not looking directly at him. JFK has moved left. JBC's face cannot be facing directly backward let alone to further around to face JFK - try it. So he is using peripheral vision.



Just so we're clear.
In the above pic you are saying that JBC is not facing directly backward??
You're saying that he can't swivel his eyes to the right and clearly see both Jackie and JFK??
Have a close look at the pic above. This is the moment you would have us believe JBC is trying to look over his right shoulder to catch a glance of JFK. He is desperate to catch a glimpse of the president:


"...so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye"


"I DID NOT CATCH THE PRESIDENT IN THE CORNER OF MY EYE"

Do you really think this applies to the pic above?

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That is the problem. No one asked him or Nellie where he said "no, no, no" in the zfilm.  Nellie said he said it before he was hit.  We can see when he says it (z245 - z250 or so).

It has to be noted that this response has nothing to do with the post you were answering. This is a favourite strategy of yours when something is really difficult to answer so let's have a look. I posted the following:
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"...failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

This does not happen in the Z-film. After looking directly at JFK there is no point at which JBC tries to look over his left shoulder "into the back seat". In the many statements (and there are many) JBC is consistent in stating that at the moment he was shot he was turning to his left.
This does not happen after z270

This is yet another key part of JBC's testimony you have to throw out. He is absolutely consistent in maintaining he was turning left when he was hit. He is really specific about it - " looking a little bit to the left of center,".
Where do you place this moment in the Z-film?

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Doubling up ever?  I don't see that.  Certainly not before z278 which is just before he falls back onto his wife.  It is apparent that JBC's mind was not focused on his surroundings or his position after he was hit so I don't think we can attribute much weight to what he said about such things after he was hit where it is at odds with the rest of the evidence.

More of JBC's testimony that needs throwing out because it shows your model up for what it is.
After being shot JBC cries out "Oh, no, no, no":

"I knew I had been hit...So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap."


Just before he is pulled into Nellie's lap JBC describes doubling up and turning to the right. Nellie describes something very similar:

"I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no."...and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

After crying out "Oh, no, no, no", JBC recoils to the right, doubling up and crumpling into his seat. Both Connally's testify to this but you say you can't see it so allow me to help you out:



I'm sure even you can see it.
The problem for you (once again ) is that this response to being shot happens before your proposed strike at z271
It is testified to by both Nellie and John Connally and is clearly shown in the Z-film, It's just not in your interest to see it.

This brings us to yet another piece of JBC's testimony you have to leave out (are you leaving any of it in?). It has been clearly established that he cries out "Oh, no, no, no" in response to being shot (reply #615) but this happens way before your proposed shot at z271. How can he be responding to being shot before your proposed shot?

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Where is he "sailing forward"? He is clearly moving backwards.

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Are you being serious?

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So he did not see JBC falling back when he looked back from z280-290? Or he did not do it in response to hearing the second shot just before that?

I assume he does see JBC falling back as I assume he saw JFK's headshot when he turns back the second time after hitting the brakes. All of which he fails to mention in his testimony.

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Hickey was not describing the head shot.  He said that the second shot appeared to miss him and just cause his hair to fly forward. He said the third did impact the President: (18 H 43):
  • At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again.
We can see the hair fly forward from z273 to z276:


Hickey is confusing the effect of two shots that have " practically no time element between them". He is not referring to JFK's fringe ruffling in the wind.

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That's a pretty big weakness. Particularly when so many confidently recalled that the head shot was the last.  Do you have any explanation why the shooter (Oswald) would want to risk another shot after such an obvious hit on the target?

So many witnesses recalled a shot after the headshot. So what? That's the nature of contradictory eye witness accounts which is why I regard the Z-film as 'primary' evidence.
As for why the shooter took the unnecessary third shot - no, I don't have a reasonable explanation. It seems totally unnecessary.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 09:24:00 PM by Dan O'meara »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #630 on: January 27, 2021, 11:06:45 PM »

"Where is the contradiction between Nellie and JBC? Both said that she pulled him down and said repeatedly "be still". Both said that occurred before and after the head shot."

I asked you for corroboration of this claim and you just blanked it. Could you corroborate such claims please or if it's stuff you're just making up could you clarify that also. Thanks
You referred to their WC testimony. So I assumed you were aware of what they said on the point to which you were referring.

Nellie Connally (4 H 147):
  • I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible
    to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I
    looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head
    so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were
    the people flashing by. I didn’t look back any more.
    The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over
    us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue,
    or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
    I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement,
    just some little something that let me know that there was still some
    life, and that is when I started saying to him, “It’s all right. Be still.”

Governor John Connally (4 H 133):
  • Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap,
    she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, “Don’t worry. Be
    quiet. You are going to be all right.” She just kept telling me I was going
    to be all right.

Both say that she said it just after he fell back onto Nellie. Whether that occurred before the third shot is not entirely clear.  JBC said she started talking to him "when" she pulled him over, which occurs around z280-290. It does appear that Nellie does what she said she did (putting her head over his) before the head shot. 

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What evidence do you have the auditory brain function ceases after being shot?
Just JBC's statement that he did not consciously register hearing the muzzle blast which would have occurred 100 ms. or so after the second bullet struck him.  Why do you find it surprising that he would not remember hearing the sound?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 11:10:36 PM by Andrew Mason »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #631 on: January 28, 2021, 01:19:27 PM »
You referred to their WC testimony. So I assumed you were aware of what they said on the point to which you were referring.

Nellie Connally (4 H 147):
  • I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible
    to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I
    looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head
    so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were
    the people flashing by. I didn’t look back any more.
    The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over
    us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue,
    or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.
    I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement,
    just some little something that let me know that there was still some
    life, and that is when I started saying to him, “It’s all right. Be still.”

Governor John Connally (4 H 133):
  • Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap,
    she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, “Don’t worry. Be
    quiet. You are going to be all right.” She just kept telling me I was going
    to be all right.

Both say that she said it just after he fell back onto Nellie. Whether that occurred before the third shot is not entirely clear.  JBC said she started talking to him "when" she pulled him over, which occurs around z280-290. It does appear that Nellie does what she said she did (putting her head over his) before the head shot. 

"Whether that occurred before the third shot is not entirely clear."

That was kind of my point. You seemed pretty certain it was clear but I wanted to see the quotes you were getting your information from (which should be routine protocol anyway when quoting someone)

Quote
Just JBC's statement that he did not consciously register hearing the muzzle blast which would have occurred 100 ms. or so after the second bullet struck him.  Why do you find it surprising that he would not remember hearing the sound?

Just to paraphrase:

Q: What evidence do you have that JBC's auditory brain function ceased after being shot?
A: He did not consciously register hearing the muzzle blast which would have occurred 100 ms. or so after the second
    bullet struck him.

If that was any more circular it'd have infinite angles.
There's no need to go stumbling down the road of the ins and outs of auditory brain function.
JBC is hit by the same bullet that passes through JFK. I have presented many arguments that demonstrate this is the case and this foray into the testimony of the Connally's has, surprisingly, supported this view. I say surprisingly as JBC is adamant he was missed by the first shot and hit by the second but a closer analysis of his testimony and how it relates to the Z-film has revealed he is hit by the first shot.
The key point is that he doesn't hear the second shot that he assumes hits him.
He hears the first shot perfectly and describes it in detail:

"I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot."
"...once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot,"

Equally, he is certain about the headshot:

"...the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly."
"It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear."


He hears these two very loud noises that he instantly recognises as rifle shots but he doesn't hear the shot that strikes him.
There is a very simple explanation for this apparent mystery - there isn't a second shot that hits JBC. He is describing being hit by the shot that has passed through JFK. As explained in my previous post -
JBC is hit at z223
The sound of the shot reaches him @ z225
He becomes consciously aware of being shot from Z232 onwards
It is no coincidence that, after careful examination of specific Z-frames Connally identifies z234 as the moment he is hit, at almost exactly the same instant we would expect him to become aware of a strike at z223 (give or take 100 milliseconds)
The gap between the sound reaching him (z225) and his awareness of being hit (z234) is around half a second. When asked about this time gap JBC is both insistent and consistent:

"A very, very brief span of time."

"...the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took,"

"My God, it was fast"

"A split second"

"Unbelievably quick"


There is not one shred of unequivocal evidence that there were two initial shots a 'split second' apart and a mountain of evidence that this was not the case. Because there wasn't two initial shots so close together. Just the one shot - the shot that passed through both JFK and JBC.
His recollections of the event are of someone 'projecting back' to this traumatic moment. His memories are not a 'video record' of what happened. His memory is 'stretching out' this split second moment:

"Trauma memories – like all memories – are malleable and prone to distortion...After a traumatic experience, intentional remembering (effortful retrieval) and unintentional remembering (intrusive mental imagery) can introduce new details that, over time, assimilate into a person’s memory for the event..."
[Memory Distortion for Traumatic Events: The Role of Mental Imagery]
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 02:24:09 AM by Dan O'meara »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The First Shot
« Reply #631 on: January 28, 2021, 01:19:27 PM »