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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 160595 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2020, 02:36:08 AM »
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Z227 is too blurred to use. The slumping that so many witnesses mention may be the one between Z226 and Z228. The level of his head drops an inch or so. I don't believe it's a reaction independent of the proposed double-hit in the Z220s, but rather a continuation of him reacting beginning Z225-226.

Could be Kennedy was trying to get his hands to his throat wound but nerve damage affected the control of his right hand, so it ended up at his chin.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 02:39:29 AM by Jerry Organ »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2020, 02:36:08 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2020, 02:53:22 AM »


Z227 is too blurred to use. The slumping that so many witnesses mention may be the one between Z226 and Z228. The level of his head drops an inch or so. I don't believe it's a reaction independent of the proposed double-hit in the Z220s, but rather a continuation of him reacting beginning Z225-226.

Could be Kennedy was trying to get his hands to his throat wound but nerve damage affected the control of his right hand, so it ended up at his chin.

Excellent graphic Jerry, not seen that before. I think the first obvious reaction occurs at z226 but there is a hint it's just beginning in z225 but it's hard to say. I agree that the way JFK's hands bunch into fists hints at nerve damage, as does the way his elbows extend upwards in such an extreme way (IMO). It's my opinion that JBC is showing an extreme reaction by z226 which, to me, suggests both men are shot through with the same shot (not a popular opinion, I'm sure).
At the moment I'm trying to find reliable information on reaction and reflex times to extreme stimuli (not as easy as I thought it might be). It should then be possible to pinpoint a reasonable estimate for the moment of impact of the first shot.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2020, 03:00:37 PM »
Excellent graphic Jerry, not seen that before. I think the first obvious reaction occurs at z226 but there is a hint it's just beginning in z225 but it's hard to say. I agree that the way JFK's hands bunch into fists hints at nerve damage, as does the way his elbows extend upwards in such an extreme way (IMO). It's my opinion that JBC is showing an extreme reaction by z226 which, to me, suggests both men are shot through with the same shot (not a popular opinion, I'm sure).
At the moment I'm trying to find reliable information on reaction and reflex times to extreme stimuli (not as easy as I thought it might be). It should then be possible to pinpoint a reasonable estimate for the moment of impact of the first shot.

Somebody said the Connally jacket pluck takes a few frames to exhibit, so Z222 or Z221/Z222 for bullet arrival and transit. In describing the SBT scenario, I go with Z220s (or early-Z220s) rather than a specific frame for impact.

The HSCA reported:

    "By Zapruder frame 207 when President Kennedy is seen going behind
     a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view, he appears to be reacting to a
     severe external stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of
     frame 200 of the Zapruder film. The President's right hand freezes in the
     midst of a waving motion, followed by a rapid leftward movement of his
     head. There is, therefore, photographic evidence of a shot striking the
     President by this time."

 

The President's head appears to be pointed the same way in Z207 and Z225, do the "rapid leftward movement of his head" could be a misinterpretation. I don't see the right hand freezing either.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2020, 03:00:37 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2020, 04:33:59 PM »
Somebody said the Connally jacket pluck takes a few frames to exhibit, so Z222 or Z221/Z222 for bullet arrival and transit. In describing the SBT scenario, I go with Z220s (or early-Z220s) rather than a specific frame for impact.

The HSCA reported:

    "By Zapruder frame 207 when President Kennedy is seen going behind
     a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view, he appears to be reacting to a
     severe external stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of
     frame 200 of the Zapruder film. The President's right hand freezes in the
     midst of a waving motion, followed by a rapid leftward movement of his
     head. There is, therefore, photographic evidence of a shot striking the
     President by this time."

 

The President's head appears to be pointed the same way in Z207 and Z225, do the "rapid leftward movement of his head" could be a misinterpretation. I don't see the right hand freezing either.

Totally agree with everything written here:
First shot: early z220's
Second shot: z313
Third shot: ?

I strongly suspect a third shot miss which brings its own problems - two strikes then a miss seems a bit dodgy so will have to give it some thought.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2020, 07:08:34 PM »
JFK's reaction to being shot seems strange in a couple of ways. Firstly, he doesn't 'clutch' at his throat as one might expect, instead his hands clench into fists which he seems to jam under his chin. Secondly is the way his elbows extend upwards in quite an extreme way. For a second or so he seems to go rigid, his elbows extended upwards. To me this seems more like a reflex than a straightforward reaction to an external stimulus. The difference being that a reflex is quicker than a reaction.

“The average reaction time for a visual stimulus is about 250 milliseconds. The average reaction time for an auditory stimulus is about 170 milliseconds and for a touch stimulus 150 milliseconds.” [https://www.onaverage.co.uk/other-averages/average-reaction-time]

If we assume the average reaction to a touch stimulus is 150 milliseconds we can use this to get a rough estimate of when JFK was first hit. Before that, it must be established when JFK first reacted to being shot. As I stated in an earlier post, as JFK begins to emerge from behind the Stemmons sign (z224) we can see his right hand in a slightly raised position. I argued that, as he was coming to the end of his last wave I couldn't draw anything conclusive about this hand position (ie: he was already reaching for his throat) and that the movement of his left arm/hand was a much truer indication of when he reacted to being shot. It appeared to me that the most obvious reaction began at z226 but there seemed to be a hint of movement at z225. In the clip below i would like to focus on JFK's right hand. It is known that after being shot his hands clench into fists which he thrusts under his chin. The clip below shows the moment his right hand clenches shut into a fist:



It seems clear to me that his hand is beginning to close in z225 and fully closes shut in z226. From this I conclude that his very first reaction to being shot can be seen in z225.
Each Zapruder frame represents, approximately, a timespan of 55 milliseconds. If we accept the reaction time to a touch stimulus as 150 milliseconds this means the stimulus (the shot) cannot have occurred more than 4 z-frames before the reaction. That is to say, the shot to which JFK is reacting cannot have occurred before z221, particularly if it is a reflex reaction. It is also worth noting that a reflex reaction is much quicker than a normal reaction to a stimulus. As such it can be expected that the first shot hit JFK z221 to z224.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 07:15:24 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2020, 07:08:34 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2020, 09:26:43 PM »
   

Maybe so. Just that Kennedy's hands sometimes ended up in a clutched position anyway.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2020, 10:32:22 PM »
   

Maybe so. Just that Kennedy's hands sometimes ended up in a clutched position anyway.

What doesn't come across in the Gif I posted showing JFK's 'hand clench' is the speed his hand slams shut. Because I often look at various videos(particularly Zapruder) in slow motion, it distorts my perception of how quickly events take place. His hand goes from a fairly open position to closed in 110-165 milliseconds. It's amazingly quick. In one instant he seems to be in a fairly relaxed, unsuspecting state and then slams his hand shut in a fraction of a second. I did this Gif to try and demonstrate the speed things are happening but I'm not sure if it captures it correctly:



I have no way of measuring it but I'd be surprised if I could do it any quicker, the difference being I would be expecting it.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2020, 01:18:35 AM »
Some animations from David Von Pein site:



Z224 has some vertical stretch,
but the right hand seems to rotate
and may clinch more
 


Z225/Z226 has both arms raising,
with redirection of the right hand
towards the chin

Z226 is where Kennedy's head turns more forward.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2020, 01:18:35 AM »