The First Shot

[Bill Chapman]

Thanks for updating me about my own name Bill but the gap is necessary. The O' is an indicator meaning something along the lines of "Belonging to the tribe/clan of". The tribe/clan in my name is Meara (an Anglicised version of the Gaelic original). They are two completely separate entities, therefore the gap.

I'm talking about the readability aspect. Nobody wants to encounter speed bumps, either on the road or on the page. I contend that your meaning comes across without the gap. After all, we're not reading from ancient scrolls here. We already know that o' means 'of'.

[Dan O'meara]

I'm talking about the readability aspect. Nobody wants to encounter speed bumps, either on the road or on the page. I contend that your meaning comes across without the gap. After all, we're not reading from ancient scrolls here. We already know that o' means 'of'.

Well Mr BillChapman, I would contend that all names retain their meaning with the correct use of capital letters but we would be getting into silly territory. The gap is part of my name, it has a function which, in and of itself, makes it necessary.
I apologise for forcing you to leap over the obstacles my name presents. It certainly doesn't have the comforting solidity of your own.
As a footnote, many families drop the O' over time as it is just a signifier. It would not be uncommon to find a "Dan Meara", particularly in Ireland. A surname like Ryan would've most probably started life as O' Ryan (in Gaelic though).

Thoughts on the thread please Bill 

[Andrew Mason]

Thanks for the link to the interview. I had seen it a while back but have learned a few things in the meantime. So it was good to revisit it again. I haven’t read “The Kennedy Detail” however it is now on the list of books that I want to read.

I do have a copy of Clint Hill’s book “Five Days in November” and have read it. A review of his chapter “The Shots” beginning on page 103 finds that he only describes two shots. No mention of a third shot, period. “Five Days in November” has a copyright dated 2013. The Gary Mack interview was done in 2010. It seems to me that if Clint wanted to write about the third shot (that he didn’t hear) this book would have been his best opportunity to set the record straight. He apparently chose to completely avoid mentioning the shot that he didn’t hear. That choice leads me to believe that he is (quite understandably) not so sure about when that shot occurred and where it went.

 Also, it appears to me that Gary Mack was trying to “put words in Clint’s mouth” and that Clint finally (and emphatically) said that he only heard two shots. Clint (as did JBC) apparently chose to agree with Mrs. Connally’s opinion that the second shot hit JBC. However, both of these men (JBC and Clint Hill) have stated that they didn’t actually hear that shot. Hmmm...

Gerald Blaine stated that both Emory Roberts and Sam Kinney saw all three shots hit their marks. However, a review of both of their original reports state otherwise. I would like to know where Gerald Blaine got his information regarding this claim...
 

Gerald Blaine's account is in the chapter titled "Six Seconds in Dallas".  He based his account in speaking to the SS agents afterward, not just their official statements.  He maintains that the second shot occurred as Clint Hill was running:

"As his feet propelled him toward the moving car, Clint Hill was so focused on reaching his target that he didn't even hear the second shot."

Despite the fact that Clint Hill recalled hearing only two shots, he also recalled that the first and last shots struck JFK.  As Blaine points out, while he was leaping off the running board and toward the President's car, his mind was very focused on what he was doing. If the second shot occurred then, since he did not see the immediate effects of the second shot, unlike the third, that may explain his lack of attention to shot #2.  It would be much more difficult to understand why he would not recall a shot before the first shot he did recall.

Sam Kinney heard three shots and said that the second shot occurred as Clint Hill jumped off and ran to the limo (Nov 22/63 statement, CE1024: 18 H 732):

"I glanced from the taillight of SS-100-X, at the President and it appeared that he had been shot because he slumped to the left.  Immediately he sat up again.* At this time the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head . With this, simultaneously with the President's car, we stepped on the gas. I released the siren at that time. I did hear three shots but do not recall which shots were those that hit the President.

*At this time Clint Hill jumped off and ran to the President's car, jumped on the back, and laid out across the trunk in a prone position where he rode the entire trip to the hospital . *"

Although he did recall "hair flying from the right side" of the President's head, that is an odd way to describe the head shot, particularly when he says that he could not recall which shots hit the President.  That "hair flying" fits with what Hickey recalled: the hair on the right side of his head flew up but did not appear to hit him.  That hair flying up is seen in the zfilm from z273-76.

[Andrew Mason]

Kellerman's recollection of the first shot tallies quite well with Rufus Youngblood's:

Mr. SPECTER. Where, as best you can recollect, was the Vice President's car at the time the first shots. were heard? And would you take Commission Exhibit No. 354 and take the red pencil and mark as closely as you can the exact position on Commission Exhibit 354 of the Vice President's car with the capital letter "A" there?
Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At the time of the first shot, did you say?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It will be in this area here, I should think.
Mr. SPECTER. I want the Vice President's car at this time.
Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, this is what I am attempting to locate. It would be in the vicinity of this "X" right here, I do believe.

The X on the above diagram would be roughly at the spot marked z160 on Jerry's diagram. Quite a good correlation between the two testimonies.

It certainly is not consistent with a first shot at z160 when the VP car is still in the intersection in the middle of the turn onto Elm St. 

[Charles Collins]

If Greer is strictly looking at the Underpass during the first shot, as you maintain, how is he able to gauge where the car is relative to the Depository? He must either have just glanced at the building or formed a mental picture of it's location. And if he can do that for the Z130s, why not for the Z150s-Z160s?

It doesn't seem like Greer was exclusively concentrating on the Underpass, that he may have been glancing around.

     Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time,
          did you observe anything on the overpass?
     Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now.
     Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the
          overpass?
     Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up
          there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time.

When he was looking at the Underpass earlier, Greer didn't look well enough to recall there were many people on top of the Underpass.

Greer seems surer of the car's location relative to the SW corner of the Depository: "The President's automobile was almost past this building." That gets it further down Elm Street than you like.

The car is only midway along the Depository's South facade in the Z130s.

The car is only midway along the Depository's South facade in the Z130s.

Yes, I can see that. However you are the one who brought up peripheral vision. And the south facade of the TSBD is at an angle to Elm Street. This would make a difference in perception to Greer versus it being parallel with Elm Street.

[John Tonkovich]

Twonkovich: I'll let the rudeness of you just referring to me by my surname go (and spelling it incorrectly) because the rest of your post is so funny 

My apologies.  I misspelled your name. Please forgive me. Thx

[Dan O'meara]

If Greer is strictly looking at the Underpass during the first shot, as you maintain, how is he able to gauge where the car is relative to the Depository? He must either have just glanced at the building or formed a mental picture of it's location. And if he can do that for the Z130s, why not for the Z150s-Z160s?

It doesn't seem like Greer was exclusively concentrating on the Underpass, that he may have been glancing around.

     Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time,
          did you observe anything on the overpass?
     Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now.
     Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the
          overpass?
     Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up
          there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time.

When he was looking at the Underpass earlier, Greer didn't look well enough to recall there were many people on top of the Underpass.

Greer's WC testimony reveals how unreliable he is as a witness. He makes a lot of how much he was focussed on the underpass:

"Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building (TSBD) at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always look at any--where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman or something like that. We try to avoid going under them."

Then, when asked about the underpass he'd been examining so intently:

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe what was present, if anything, on that overpass?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of on the overpass.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anything at all on the overpass?
Mr. GREER. Not that I can now remember.

"Not that I can now remember"? In the picture Jerry posted there are 10 men on the underpass!. When pushed on it his memory clears a little:

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the overpass?
Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time.

There "may have been" one police officer up there. Not a very convincing recollection. In fact, he seems to remember very little:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present with the President's automobile, if any?
Mr. GREER. I could not toll the exact amount of motorcycles that were escorting us at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the motorcade?
Mr. GREER. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us

Mr. SPECTER. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which you have just described?
Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance.

Mr. SPECTER. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to observe how far behind you the President's follow-up car was?
Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how far it was behind me at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?
Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot?
Mr. GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between the point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless getting there. I was-

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable accuracy on the time it took?
Mr. GREER. No, sir.


Not exactly inspiring but that's not the worst of it. There are lesser things like him forgetting that he turned round twice, not once, and to forget that the inside of the limo was sprayed with fragments (Kellerman describes it as a flurry of shots) seems unlikely but to forget that he applied the brakes and slowed the limo down to walking pace? Really?
There are other niggling things -

GREER ...My recollection here is that there wasn't too many people on Elm Street--a few scattered people at that point.
Mr. SPECTER. And your finger indicated there the position near the Texas School Depository Building?

The crowds outside the TSBD can hardly be described as 'a few scattered people'.

Mr. SPECTER. When you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never passed it.

The Bell film shows the limo clearly overtaking the car in front.

His state of mind at the time of the event is revealed in little snippets:

"I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me."

"Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more."

Greer's testimony is clearly unreliable and should not be relied upon to ascertain the location of the first shot. Kellerman's testimony is far more reliable and locates the first shot at a relatively specific point.

[Andrew Mason]

Well if you think the VP car is so far down down for the first shot, what about the comments from witnesses that the car was further back up Elm when the first shot was heard?

All those quotes are quite consistent with a first shot with the VP car in the vicinity of the "x" that he marked, maybe a bit earlier.  "rounding a curve" does not mean "turning the 135 degree turn at Elm".  "Rounding a curve" is what the car did after the turn following the curved lanes on Elm St. 
"Just made the turn" means a short time after completing the turn, not in the middle of making the turn.