The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

Greer's testimony is clearly unreliable and should not be relied upon to ascertain the location of the first shot. Kellerman's testimony is far more reliable and locates the first shot at a relatively specific point.

There is a difference between being reliable and being observant.  Greer admitted he had only vague recollections of much of what was going on around him after the first shot. 

Reliability is determined by fitting one's recollections to the rest of the evidence.  If you wanted to establish whether there were people on the overpass, you would not use Greer's evidence because he admitted that he had only a vague recollection of that.  But if you wanted to know whether his clear evidence about when the first shot occurred, you would see how it fit with the rest of the evidence.  As far as I can determine, it fits very well with the rest of the evidence.

According to Greer, the limo was just about past the western edge of the TSBD.  That puts it within 20 frames of z200, either way. That fits with a host of witnesses along Elm St., witnesses in the motorcade and photographers such as Phil Willis and Hugh Betzner who identified the time of the first shot in that same range.

Greer also had a clear recollection of turning around immediately after hearing the second shot, which he does at z278-80 and seeing JBC falling back.  We can see that in the zfilm.  The recollection of a shot just prior fits with what Hickey and Kinney observed with the hair flying up as seen in the zfilm at z273- 76. It also fits with the shot pattern recalled by over 40 witnesses.

[Dan O'meara]

All those quotes are quite consistent with a first shot with the VP car in the vicinity of the "x" that he marked, maybe a bit earlier.  "rounding a curve" does not mean "turning the 135 degree turn at Elm".  "Rounding a curve" is what the car did after the turn following the curved lanes on Elm St. 
"Just made the turn" means a short time after completing the turn, not in the middle of making the turn.

All of the quotes from the VP Secret Service car have nothing whatsoever to do with picture they are connected with . This seems so obvious I'm slightly confused as to why it's been posted. The quotes clearly belong to a moment when the VP SS car is actually on Elm Street and not still on Houston.

[Bill Chapman]

You're a Defense Attorney. That means you know how to lie better than most in order to advance your case. And there's plenty of porkies in your PDF.

And there's plenty of porkies in your PDF.

Are you saying he's in Barney Rubble?

[Dan O'meara]

There is a difference between being reliable and being observant.  Greer admitted he had only vague recollections of much of what was going on around him after the first shot. 

Reliability is determined by fitting one's recollections to the rest of the evidence.  If you wanted to establish whether there were people on the overpass, you would not use Greer's evidence because he admitted that he had only a vague recollection of that.  But if you wanted to know whether his clear evidence about when the first shot occurred, you would see how it fit with the rest of the evidence.  As far as I can determine, it fits very well with the rest of the evidence.

According to Greer, the limo was just about past the western edge of the TSBD.  That puts it within 20 frames of z200, either way. That fits with a host of witnesses along Elm St., witnesses in the motorcade and photographers such as Phil Willis and Hugh Betzner who identified the time of the first shot in that same range.

Greer also had a clear recollection of turning around immediately after hearing the second shot, which he does at z278-80 and seeing JBC falling back.  We can see that in the zfilm.  The recollection of a shot just prior fits with what Hickey and Kinney observed with the hair flying up as seen in the zfilm at z273- 76. It also fits with the shot pattern recalled by over 40 witnesses.

This is quite a nifty side-step of the copious amount of evidence presented to demonstrate how poor a witness Greer is. That he is unobservant cannot be denied, this alone puts a very large question mark over his ability to place where the first shot occurred, particularly, as he noted himself:

"Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was."

The unobservant Mr Greer never really paid any attention to the first shot, let alone his position on the road at the time. But, as you say, there is a big difference between being reliable and being observant (unless, of course, it comes to witnessing a crime), so let's use your own definition of reliability - "determined by fitting one's recollections to the rest of the evidence".

Greer states that he was focussed on who was on the underpass. When pushed he said one officer (perhaps):

Mr. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at that time you would now remember it?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir.

The photo Jerry posted shows 10 men on the underpass. 10 men!

Greer is clear that he turned round one time, after hearing the second shot, then hit the gas.
The Z-film shows him looking round twice.

At no point does Greer state that he hit the brakes slowing the limo down. He doesn't even hint at it. He gives the distinct impression that he did not touch the brakes:

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots?
Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per hour.
Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred?
Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred.


It is known from multiple sources that the limo slowed quite dramatically after the first shot but Greer recalls something quite different.
These examples alone demonstrate Greer's unreliability by your own definition but there's something more - I'm starting to become really suspicious of Greer. In your post you state:

"Greer also had a clear recollection of turning around immediately after hearing the second shot, which he does at z278-80 and seeing JBC falling back."

How clear is his recollection? Firstly he turned round twice, something he fails to mention. In the Z-film, the second time he turns round he appears to be looking in the direction of JFK at the time of the headshot, something else he fails to mention. On closer inspection we find Greer lying about his observations when he turned round:

"Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?
Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again."

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

Greer is adamant he never saw the President hit even though the Z-film shows him looking in that direction at the time of the headshot. Then later on in the same testimony:

Mr. SPECTER. And the first part refers to your noticing that the President evidently had been hit. Did you ever
Mr. GREER. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The Governor was the person that I knew was--when we were first in trouble, when I see the Governor.
Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?
Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?
Mr. GREER. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.

Greer denies seeing the President hit four times before admitting he knew he was injured in some way and when asked how he knew the President was injured he comes up with the quite awesome phrase "If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew..."
This last statement of Greer's does not speak of reliability.

As for the slight ruffling of JFK's hair being the same as his hair "flying up"... I'm not so sure. I think the observation of JFK's hair flying up seems more like when part of his head flew up in the air with hair attached to it. Other witnesses make the same observation about his hair flying up but always in reference to the headshot.

[Dan O'meara]

And there's plenty of porkies in your PDF.

Are you saying he's in Barney Rubble?

You'd better Adam and Eve it.

[Andrew Mason]

Greer is clear that he turned round one time, after hearing the second shot, then hit the gas.

??He said he turned around twice. The Z-film shows him looking around twice. In his WC testimony he said:

Mr. GREER I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

That fits perfectly with what is seen in the zfilm.  There is no question that Greer is reliable in saying that he turned around a second time and immediately after that there was another shot.  We can see it in the zfilm.  The question is whether he is as reliable in saying that when he turned the first time it was just after hearing a shot (the second shot).

As for the slight ruffling of JFK's hair being the same as his hair "flying up"... I'm not so sure. I think the observation of JFK's hair flying up seems more like when part of his head flew up in the air with hair attached to it. Other witnesses make the same observation about his hair flying up but always in reference to the headshot.

Who are you suggesting described the head shot as hair flying up only?

It would not be particularly reliable if it was just one witness saying they saw something at a particular time (in Hickey's case, JFK's hair flying up after he turned to look forward at the time of the second shot).  To have another independently report seeing the same thing (Kinney) ie. JFK's hair flying up at the time of the second shot, one has to take it more seriously.   But then to have both corroborated by actual film showing JFK's hair flying up at that time and then have Greer corroborate it further by turning around just after that (which he said was immediately after the second shot) is highly significant.  There are only two possibilities:  they were all independently wrong in the same way and it is just a coincidence that the zfilm shows what they mistakenly thought they saw but didn't OR they were accurately reporting what they observed.

[Dan O'meara]

??He said he turned around twice. The Z-film shows him looking around twice. In his WC testimony he said:

That fits perfectly with what is seen in the zfilm.  There is no question that Greer is reliable in saying that he turned around a second time and immediately after that there was another shot.  We can see it in the zfilm.  The question is whether he is as reliable in saying that when he turned the first time it was just after hearing a shot (the second shot).
Who are you suggesting described the head shot as hair flying up only?

It would not be particularly reliable if it was just one witness saying they saw something at a particular time (in Hickey's case, JFK's hair flying up after he turned to look forward at the time of the second shot).  To have another independently report seeing the same thing (Kinney) ie. JFK's hair flying up at the time of the second shot, one has to take it more seriously.   But then to have both corroborated by actual film showing JFK's hair flying up at that time and then have Greer corroborate it further by turning around just after that (which he said was immediately after the second shot) is highly significant.  There are only two possibilities:  they were all independently wrong in the same way and it is just a coincidence that the zfilm shows what they mistakenly thought they saw but didn't OR they were accurately reporting what they observed.

I thought I was going crazy there for a second but I see where you might be going wrong. Greer states:

"Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast."

He heard a second noise.
Glanced over his shoulder
Realised something was wrong
Hit the gas

He states quite clearly he glanced over his shoulder once then reacted to it. Greer is then questioned about the timing of the shots:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?
Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?
Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.
Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise?

Here Greer is saying that he heard a second noise, looked over his shoulder, then turned round again meaning he turned back round to face forward. That's when he heard the third noise. This is confirmed later in his tesimony:

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?
Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.

And later again:

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?
Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.

Greer describes turning around once. Something not shown in the Z-film. Now that's cleared up what do you think about all the other points made in my post pertaining to Greer's reliability?

[Andrew Mason]

I thought I was going crazy there for a second but I see where you might be going wrong. Greer states:

"Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast."

He heard a second noise.
Glanced over his shoulder
Realised something was wrong
Hit the gas

He states quite clearly he glanced over his shoulder once then reacted to it. Greer is then questioned about the timing of the shots:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard?
Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway that I heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time?
Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.
Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise?

Here Greer is saying that he heard a second noise, looked over his shoulder, then turned round again meaning he turned back round to face forward. That's when he heard the third noise. This is confirmed later in his tesimony:

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot?
Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.

And later again:

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the President had been hit?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. I didn't know.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way?
Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.

Greer describes turning around once. Something not shown in the Z-film. Now that's cleared up what do you think about all the other points made in my post pertaining to Greer's reliability?

Greer used the phrase " And when I turned around again".  That is an odd way to describe turning around rearward and then turning to the front. He seems to be talking about two rearward turns.  If he had not actually turned around twice within about 2 seconds, there might be some ambiguity about whether he meant turning rearward twice.    He also repeated this a little later on and it appears that Arlen Specter understood that he was referring to two rearward turns and glances at the Governor:

Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?
Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?
Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn’t see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. As the time?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right.
Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it.

As far as the evidence of Greer as to when the car accelerated forward, the zfilm shows that he slowed down as he was looking back and did not accelerate until after the head shot.  This was the third shot in the sequence that he described.  He is not reliable on that issue since he is contradicted by the zfilm and also by Clint Hill and the other agents. That may have been Greer's way of coping with his feeling that he should have accelerated sooner and wished he had.

Some witnesses make reliable observations and unreliable observations.  To find facts you have to be able to determine what is reliable and what isn't.