The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

Here is a similar angled view (of a re-enactment) which appears to be just a few feet further down Elm Street (I don't remember for sure which exact Z-rame this re-enactment is portraying):

Anyone can put a straight line between JFK's neck and JBC's right armpit. The difficulty is aligning it with a straight line from the SN. That photo does not do that. Neither did Arlen Specter's pointer.

And this is an overhead view of the same position:

This is a much better attempt.  Presumably the laser shows the path from the SN although I am not sure how that is done. The laser beam normally does not show up passing through air.  But even this shows that JBC's right armpit had to be to the left of the middle of the jump seat.  I don't see where that was ever the case.

I believe that the reason we apparently don't see JBC's right shoulder in the Betzner photo is that the shot actually occurred a little later than when that photo was taken. JBC said that he turned to look at JFK and was in the middle of turning the other way (to look over his left shoulder for JFK) when he was hit (in the back). So JBC was moving during that time period, not stationary.

You can't prove that the second shot occurred at z223 or so by using as a premise that that is when the second shot occurred, which is what you are doing.

A look at the Z-186 frame shows that JBC was turned to his right, I believe that that was approximately when he was turned as far right as he could. And his right shoulder was a little further towards the centerline of the limo than it was after he started to turn the other way. A look at the Z-frames that follow Z-186 confirms that JBC was turning back the other way.

JBC maintained that right turned posture until he disappeared behind the Stemmons sign. When he emerges in z223 we can see that he is turned facing forward. If that is where you think he was hit, his right shoulder is certainly not left of the middle of the jump seat.

Another point is: If you want to rely on witness testimony for the timing of this shot, then how the heck can you ignore the fact that JBC said that he felt the shot hit his back. If he had been shot in the left leg a few seconds before he was hit in the back (as you suggest), why wouldn't he have said that be the pain he said he felt when he was shot was in his left thigh?

He NEVER felt the thigh wound or the wrist wound.  Extremity wounds are not always felt.  Bullets hit and destroy tissue and nerves so you don't feel them.  What you feel is the loss of function resulting from the wound.  I have never been shot. I am just going by what wound experts and people who have been shot say they experienced.  Even JBC said he felt no pain from the bullet passing through his chest but he felt the impact. 

[Charles Collins]

Anyone can put a straight line between JFK's neck and JBC's right armpit. The difficulty is aligning it with a straight line from the SN. That photo does not do that. Neither did Arlen Specter's pointer.
This is a much better attempt.  Presumably the laser shows the path from the SN although I am not sure how that is done. The laser beam normally does not show up passing through air.  But even this shows that JBC's right armpit had to be to the left of the middle of the jump seat.  I don't see where that was ever the case.
You can't prove that the second shot occurred at z223 or so by using as a premise that that is when the second shot occurred, which is what you are doing.
JBC maintained that right turned posture until he disappeared behind the Stemmons sign. When he emerges in z223 we can see that he is turned facing forward. If that is where you think he was hit, his right shoulder is certainly not left of the middle of the jump seat.
He NEVER felt the thigh wound or the wrist wound.  Extremity wounds are not always felt.  Bullets hit and destroy tissue and nerves so you don't feel them.  What you feel is the loss of function resulting from the wound.  I have never been shot. I am just going by what wound experts and people who have been shot say they experienced.  Even JBC said he felt no pain from the bullet passing through his chest but he felt the impact.

But even this shows that JBC's right armpit had to be to the left of the middle of the jump seat.  I don't see where that was ever the case.

It is most clearly the case in Z186. I have added a red line to both of these images. In the top view it crosses both the gap between the front and rear doors and a point about 1/4 of the way between the upright supports of the handhold on the left rear of the trunk. In the z186 frame it does the same. Now, if you cannot see JBC is to the left of the middle of the seat then you are being blinded by your own confirmation bias.

[John Tonkovich]

So, while out on a parade run, JFK sits far right in his seat, maybe to be closer and visible to the public?, while Connally... sits far left, to...uh, be away from the public? because...??

[Dan O'meara]

As far as the possibility of a shot at 190, it's not just the blur analysis and eyewitness evidence that places the first shot at this time, but the photo analysis. One of the most overlooked facts about the case is that the HSCA photography panel concluded a shot rang out before Kennedy went behind the sign...and that they came to this conclusion before the acoustics panel came to their conclusion a shot at Z-190 was probable.

Dave Powers said Kennedy jerked off the side of the car when hit. Kennedy's head and arm movements as he heads behind the sign suggest he was hit at this time. His movements at this time certainly don't look natural. And the failure of Dale Myers etc to acknowledge this and to insist he continued calmly waving at this time is perplexing, to say the least.

The first point is about Jiggle/blur analysis of the Z-film.
You would not disagree that only a very loud noise would cause such blur/jiggle.
You would also agree that, according to the vast majority of ear-witnesses, only three clearly audible shots rang out.
But would you agree that more than three instances of blur/jiggle during the Z-film makes the use of this analysis to determine when shots occurred completely redundant?
Another observation of the HCSA panel was that JFK 'froze' before going behind the Stemmons sign.
This is not shown in the Z-film.
The 'biggest' revelation was that JFK made a startling head turn to his left just before passing behind the Stemmons sign.
This has been completely refuted in this thread. JFK made no such head turn.
This leaves you with witnesses like Willis and Powers but I will hold up witnesses like Brandt and Templin who are absolutely adamant the first shot hit Kennedy after the limo had passed their position.
This rules out a first shot at z190 as does JFK's reaction to being shot as seen in the Z-film.

[Charles Collins]

The first point is about Jiggle/blur analysis of the Z-film.
You would not disagree that only a very loud noise would cause such blur/jiggle.
You would also agree that, according to the vast majority of ear-witnesses, only three clearly audible shots rang out.
But would you agree that more than three instances of blur/jiggle during the Z-film makes the use of this analysis to determine when shots occurred completely redundant?
Another observation of the HCSA panel was that JFK 'froze' before going behind the Stemmons sign.
This is not shown in the Z-film.
The 'biggest' revelation was that JFK made a startling head turn to his left just before passing behind the Stemmons sign.
This has been completely refuted in this thread. JFK made no such head turn.
This leaves you with witnesses like Willis and Powers but I will hold up witnesses like Brandt and Templin who are absolutely adamant the first shot hit Kennedy after the limo had passed their position.
This rules out a first shot at z190 as does JFK's reaction to being shot as seen in the Z-film.

Dan, witness accounts will never cause visual evidence such as the Zapruder film to be ruled out. The opposite is going to happen every time.

[Dan O'meara]

Dan, witness accounts will never cause visual evidence such as the Zapruder film to be ruled out. The opposite is going to happen every time.

I couldn't agree more with you Charles, for me the Z-film is the benchmark against which witness evidence should be tested.
You're idea of a shot @ z130's has been utterly refuted in this thread using the Z-film but it seems to have made little difference to your point of view.

[Charles Collins]

I couldn't agree more with you Charles, for me the Z-film is the benchmark against which witness evidence should be tested.
You're idea of a shot @ z130's has been utterly refuted in this thread using the Z-film but it seems to have made little difference to your point of view.

Can you cite a witness account that I have used in an attempt to rule out what can be seen in the Zapruder film?

And specifically what is it that you believe is shown in the Zapruder film that would “utterly refute” the shot around the Z133 time?

[Dan O'meara]

What do we see in the Willis photo that proves it was taken simultaneously with the first shot?

I see some things that suggest it was taken well after the first shot:

• Mrs. Kennedy and the Connallys are looking to their right; all said they turned their heads in reaction to hearing the first shot; the Connallys beginning in the Z160s and Mrs. Kennedy in the Z170s.
  

The reason they are looking to their right is because the crowds are to their right, there is just an empty space to the left with the odd person to their right. Watch the Z-film, as they enter the area with no-one to their left heads turn right. Why would they be looking into an unoccupied area?

Willis05 was taken at Z202. Willis himself stated:

    "Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of
     the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just
     snap in that direction ... she turned to the right toward him."

I like the way you criticise Willis so much but are willing to quote him when necessary. You've missed that Jackie's head turn to the right begins @ z174 further undermining Willis' observations.

• Agent John Ready is looking off to his right; he also said he did this in response to the first shot.
  

I'm pretty sure we've been here before.
Ready does not say he turns to the right.
He says he turns to the right rear. He says he looks behind him.
It's mildly annoying you won't be corrected on this.

My timing of the Willis photo is that it was taken about 2.4 seconds after the first shot and 1.14 seconds before the second shot. If it happened that way, the Willis photo was "simultaneous" with the first two shots, but not a particular shot. Willis was sort of telling the truth, Ted Cruz-style.

To imagine the SS agents riding on the follow up car took so long to react is ridiculous. It's utterly ridiculous. We see the reaction in Altgens 6, it matches perfectly with their own testimony and is confirmed by other testimony. This has been dealt with at length in this thread but you refuse to deal with it.[/list]