The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

?? Of course it is not THE issue. It is a useful tool to measure the amount of turn that JBC has from facing forward.Right. And that depends on the frame. And if we measure the angle to Zapruder on that frame we can use that as a reference. For example, at z271 JBC is turned a few degrees further right than facing Zapruder.  Zapruder is 72 degrees to the JBC face- forward direction (car direction).
There are several problems if that is supposed to depict an SBT shot. The path through JBC exiting just below and slightly medial to the right nipple requires a significant right turn to avoid the lung and exiting through his sternum. Then it has to strike the right radius, pass through the wrist and deflect sharp left to then strike the left thigh and make a tangential wound in the direction of the femur.  It certainly does not work with that posture.

Also, JBC is not turned like that at z223. He is facing more or less forward. So to have the path through JFK align with the entry wound on JBC you have to move JBC so his right armpit is left of the middle of the jump seat.

Finally, this depicts JFK extremely far to the right with his ribs pressed against the inside panel of the car.  But that is not what he is doing in z224.  He has moved well away from the wall and has his hands at his neck. (which also makes it hard for the bullet exiting his neck to miss them, but that is a minor detail).
Why?  At z271 the car has travelled farther along the curve and is moving almost directly away from the SN. No. It would transfer forward momentum in the direction of the bullet.  JBC described a forceful impact. Nellie observed JBC move from the impact.  We can see JBC sail forward (the only person moving) from z272 to z278 when he starts to fall back onto Nellie.I don't know why you would think that.  It followed along the fifth rib for a few inches.  The bullet did not pass through the lung. It passed around the lung.
That is a bit less than half a second. He said he felt no pain.  Are you saying that he should have reacted? Besides, you seem to think he assumed that position and was looking toward JFK for the previous 3 seconds after being hit.

If I'd known Charles was posting at the same time I would have left it to him as he deals with this issue far better than I can.
Would you like to address the points Charles makes?

[Charles Collins]

If I'd known Charles was posting at the same time I would have left it to him as he deals with this issue far better than I can.
Would you like to address the points Charles makes?

You and I made similar points. He probably believes that he has “utterly refuted” both of us. Much like your belief that your opinion utterly refutes anything other than a first shot at Z223.

[Andrew Mason]

You and I made similar points. He probably believes that he has “utterly refuted” both of us. Much like your belief that your opinion utterly refutes anything other than a first shot at Z223.

The simple answer to that is that there is abundant evidence from witnesses to conclude that the first shot struck JFK.  So Dan is on solid ground there.  He is also on solid ground in concluding that the shot sequence has the last two shots closer together and in rapid succession.  The only point on which Dan and I disagree is whether there was a shot after the head shot.  I think we both disagree with him on that.

It is not a matter of "utterly refuting" anyone. It is a matter of reconciling all the evidence in the best way possible.  And the problem with the SBT, especially the second shot SBT, is that there is so much conflicting evidence.  On the other hand, there is very little conflicting evidence in the rest of the case. There is the odd witness who doesn't agree with the rest of them but on all the witness evidence it is easy to conclude from just the witnesses that:
1. there were 3 shots
2. that the shots appeared to come from the same location
3. that many witnesses were confused as to the direction of the source - except those witnesses close to the TSBD or in the TSBD.
4. that a pipe like object was protruding out of the 6th floor SE window at the time of the shots
5. that Oswald owned the MC found on the 6th floor.
6. that Oswald's palm prints were on the packaging found in the SN
7. that Oswald had carried a longish package to work that morning.
8. that Oswald had walked out of the TSBD within minutes of the shooting without telling anyone
9. that Oswald went home and got his hand gun.
10. that Oswald walked from there toward East 10th Street where he then encountered Officer Tippitt and shot him.
11. that Oswald resisted arrest at the Texas Theater and pulled his gun out while being arrested.

On all of these issues, there is really no problem with the witness evidence.  The only issue on which there is so much witness evidence that you do not accept is the SBT, particularly the second shot SBT.  I have less of a problem reconciling the witness evidence with a first shot SBT but for the Connallys' evidence and the notion that the second shot missed the car but 2 seconds or so later hit the bulls-eye.

[Jack Nessan]

From the testimony of Mr Canning,  Staff Engineer for the Space Projects Division of NASA Ames Research Center, explaining trajectory analysis during the HSCA Investigation.

Mr. SAWYER. If we were to start at the other end then and assume that a bullet were fired at the approximate time we have determined from the sixth floor of the depository, would it have of necessity given the wounds in the President, would it of necessity, based on what you have determined as to locations somewhat, also have hit Governor Connally?
Mr. CANNING. The bullet would have had to have been substantially deflected by passing through the President in order to miss the Governor. It seems almost inevitable that the Governor would be hit with the alinements that we have found.
Mr. SAWYER. So that if we assume, as apparently is the fact, that this jacketed bullet did not hit anything solid in the way of bone in the President but only traversed the soft tissue of the neck, and presuming the approximate location of the limousine at the time and the posture as nearly as can be determined of the President at that time, that in your view then, absent a deflection of that bullet, it could not have missed Governor Connally.
Mr. CANNING. That is my view, yes.
Mr. SAWYER. I think that is all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is really not that complicated. A shot striking JBC at Z270+  is not even within the realm of possibilities. Whatever happened to the proposed idea that the 2nd shot bullet only stuck JBC in the leg?

The reason a shot between the neck/back shot and head shot cannot ever be discerned is because it never happened. Exactly what the eye witnesses stated that they only know of two shots.

[Andrew Mason]

From the testimony of Mr Canning,  Staff Engineer for the Space Projects Division of NASA Ames Research Center, explaining trajectory analysis during the HSCA Investigation.

Mr. SAWYER. If we were to start at the other end then and assume that a bullet were fired at the approximate time we have determined from the sixth floor of the depository, would it have of necessity given the wounds in the President, would it of necessity, based on what you have determined as to locations somewhat, also have hit Governor Connally?
Mr. CANNING. The bullet would have had to have been substantially deflected by passing through the President in order to miss the Governor. It seems almost inevitable that the Governor would be hit with the alinements that we have found.
Mr. SAWYER. So that if we assume, as apparently is the fact, that this jacketed bullet did not hit anything solid in the way of bone in the President but only traversed the soft tissue of the neck, and presuming the approximate location of the limousine at the time and the posture as nearly as can be determined of the President at that time, that in your view then, absent a deflection of that bullet, it could not have missed Governor Connally.
Mr. CANNING. That is my view, yes.
Mr. SAWYER. I think that is all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This is really not that complicated. A shot striking JBC at Z270+  is not even within the realm of possibilities. Whatever happened to the proposed idea that the 2nd shot bullet only stuck JBC in the leg?

I don't know. Who ever suggested that?

I have shown how the trajectory of a first shot between z190 and z200 through JFK's neck would have gone to the left side of JBC's midline.  The only wound on JBC's left side is the thigh wound, which he never felt. If he was turned right as he is in z193 and his legs were apart (which for anatomical reasons they had to be) and he was seated in the middle of the jump seat with JFK's right rib cage an inch or two from the side of the car as it appears in z193 so the neck exit wound is about 10 inches from the side of the car, then at z190-200 the path from the SN through JFK's neck passes the plane of the front jump seat back on a right to left 13 degree (at least) angle, at least a further 5.5 inches left or at least 15.5 inches from the inside surface of the car door.  That is assuming JFK's exit wound was 24 inches from the plane of the jump seat back. Since JBC was not pressed back against the seat back, his spine was probably several inches farther forward. 

The problem with discounting a neck to left thigh path for the bullet is that no one has ever considered it.  If it is so outlandish it would have been easy to reject as even a possibility.  The trajectory certainly can work if the positions of the two men were such that the neck wound and thigh wound aligned with a shot from the SN at some point.  We would be able to determine what conditions are required in order for the trajectory to work and then see if those conditions are met at some point. I suggest that they could have all been met at a point between z190-205, which also fits with the witness evidence.

We would then the have to consider the wounds. It seems to me that all the wounds and the CE399 bullet are consistent with passing through JFK 's neck, knicking the tie knot then tumbling - perhaps getting tangled in the drape of the jacket before striking JBC's left thigh (and either sticking in the thigh or perhaps continuing at a slowed speed and striking the wall in front and landing on JBC's lap). It would certainly provide an explanation for the condition of CE399 that is much less problematic than the SBT. 

The reason a shot between the neck/back shot and head shot cannot ever be discerned is because it never happened. Exactly what the eye witnesses stated that they only know of two shots.

There is a significant body of evidence for a shot there. It would be necessary in order to fit the 1......2...3 shot pattern evidence if z313 was the last shot. It would also fit SA Hickey's evidence, Greer's evidence, the Connally's evidence, the first shot hitting JFK evidence, Power's evidence, etc. BTW, how do you explain the sudden motion of JBC from z272-278:


or the noticeable hair flip that Hickey said occurred at the time of the second shot sound and which can be seen in these frames:

[Andrew Mason]

It appears to me that at Z272 the limo was traveling in a line close to directly away from the sniper's nest window. Therefore the path of the bullet would have been roughly parallel to the back to front centerline of the limo. If JBC was turned with a line perpendicular to the plane of his chest at 72-degrees (your apparent opinion) from straight forward (in relation to the limo) and a bullet hit him in the back near the right armpit and continued to travel in a straight line, it would exit on the left side of his chest after probably going through his heart. That didn't happen, the bullet exit wound is near his right nipple. Therefore the bullet wouldn't have been slightly deflected as you apparently believe. It would have had to have been deflected around 60-degrees.

One just has to determine the direction of a line between the entrance and exit wound locations with the torso twisted about 75 degrees as seen in the z271 and 272 and compare to a line from the SN to the entrance wound.  I was trying to find a photo of a twisted naked torso but, alas, this is the best I could come up with:


But even with that, you can easily see that the path from the armpit to nipple does not go through lung let alone the other side. That is because the rib cage is articulated by the ribs and the shoulders move more than parts lower down.  So just because JBC's shoulders are turned 75 degrees the relative positions of the armpit and right nipple do not change that much. In fact, it moves the right nipple farther to the right making the line from the armpit to the nipple align closer to a shot from the rear.

Here is Dale Meyers' animation at Z224. (Note that the limo is not traveling directly away from the sniper's nest window at that point, so the path of the bullet is at a corresponding angle instead of straight in line with the limo direction as it was at Z272.) I don't remember the precise angle that Meyers calculated that JBC is turned to the right from straight forward. But eyeballing it, I get around 30-degrees. You have stated that you believe JBC is turned somewhere around 72-degrees. This is approximately an additional (42-degrees minus the change in the relative bullet path to the limo, lets just say around 35-degrees) to the right. And if your theory that the bullet hit JBC in the back at his right armpit area then this would require that the bullet was deflected an additional 35-degrees to the right (from the slight deflection that Meyers calculated) in order to exit JBC where it did (in the right nipple area). Is this what you believe happened?

This shows an angle of the bullet path to the car about 8 degrees.  I can't get anywhere near 8 degrees at z224. It is more like 12.5 degrees.  Besides, this shows JBC with his head out over the console between the jump seats and has his shoulders turned quite a bit right from forward.  That does not fit z224 that I can see.  He is facing forward at that time.

[Charles Collins]

One just has to determine the direction of a line between the entrance and exit wound locations with the torso twisted about 75 degrees as seen in the z271 and 272 and compare to a line from the SN to the entrance wound.  I was trying to find a photo of a twisted naked torso but, alas, this is the best I could come up with:


But even with that, you can easily see that the path from the armpit to nipple does not go through lung let alone the other side. That is because the rib cage is articulated by the ribs and the shoulders move more than parts lower down.  So just because JBC's shoulders are turned 75 degrees the relative positions of the armpit and right nipple do not change that much. In fact, it moves the right nipple farther to the right making the line from the armpit to the nipple align closer to a shot from the rear.
This shows an angle of the bullet path to the car about 8 degrees.  I can't get anywhere near 8 degrees at z224. It is more like 12.5 degrees.  Besides, this shows JBC with his head out over the console https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=1339&fullsize=1 the jump seats and has his shoulders turned quite a bit right from forward.  That does not fit z224 that I can see.  He is facing forward at that time.

This shows an angle of the bullet path to the car about 8 degrees.  I can't get anywhere near 8 degrees at z224. It is more like 12.5 degrees.  Besides, this shows JBC with his head out over the console https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=1339&fullsize=1 the jump seats and has his shoulders turned quite a bit right from forward.  That does not fit z224 that I can see.  He is facing forward at that time.

I just checked the angle using the following method. Don Roberdeau’s map shows the limousine’s locations at various times including Z207, Z225, and Z247. An arc would be required to connect these three points. Therefore the limousine was turning towards the left during the time between Z207 and Z247 (not traveling in a straight line). I drew a straight line between the points labeled Z207 and Z225 and extended it substantially past each point. I did the same thing for Z225 and Z247. Z224 is close to halfway between Z207 and Z247 in time and distance. Therefore I believe that a line that bisects the angle between the first two lines that I described earlier would be very close to the direction of the limo at Z224. I hope that you can follow all of that. Another line between the point designating the rifle in the sniper’s nest window and the point designating Z225 would represent the path of a bullet aimed at JFK at that moment. I measured the angle between the bullet path and the limousine direction at Z224  to be 8-degrees. The angle between the bullet path and the line between points Z207 and Z225 to be 12-degrees. And the angle between the bullet path (@Z225) and the line between points  Z225 and Z247 to be 2-degrees. So it appears to me that Don Roberdeau’s map tends to agree with Dale Meyers’ calculations. And perhaps your results don’t take into account the curved path of the limo.

Also, JBC is not facing to the front of the limo at Z224. I believe that this set of Z-frames might help clarify the actual position of JBC during this time period. His right shoulder is difficult to discern from what I interpret to be shadow behind and to his right of that shoulder. Which tends to distort the perception of his actual position.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=1339&fullsize=1

[Andrew Mason]

This shows an angle of the bullet path to the car about 8 degrees.  I can't get anywhere near 8 degrees at z224. It is more like 12.5 degrees.  Besides, this shows JBC with his head out over the console https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=1339&fullsize=1 the jump seats and has his shoulders turned quite a bit right from forward.  That does not fit z224 that I can see.  He is facing forward at that time.

I just checked the angle using the following method. Don Roberdeau’s map shows the limousine’s locations at various times including Z207, Z225, and Z247. An arc would be required to connect these three points. Therefore the limousine was turning towards the left during the time between Z207 and Z247 (not traveling in a straight line). I drew a straight line between the points labeled Z207 and Z225 and extended it substantially past each point. I did the same thing for Z225 and Z247. Z224 is close to halfway between Z207 and Z247 in time and distance. Therefore I believe that a line that bisects the angle between the first two lines that I described earlier would be very close to the direction of the limo at Z224. I hope that you can follow all of that. Another line between the point designating the rifle in the sniper’s nest window and the point designating Z225 would represent the path of a bullet aimed at JFK at that moment. I measured the angle between the bullet path and the limousine direction at Z224  to be 8-degrees. The angle between the bullet path and the line between points Z207 and Z225 to be 12-degrees. And the angle between the bullet path (@Z225) and the line between points  Z225 and Z247 to be 2-degrees. So it appears to me that Don Roberdeau’s map tends to agree with Dale Meyers’ calculations. And perhaps your results don’t take into account the curved path of the limo.

Also, JBC is not facing to the front of the limo at Z224. I believe that this set of Z-frames might help clarify the actual position of JBC during this time period. His right shoulder is difficult to discern from what I interpret to be shadow behind and to his right of that shoulder. Which tends to distort the perception of his actual position.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=1339&fullsize=1

It is important to try to get this right. Here is how I determined the angle.  I used a scan of a scale map of Dealey Plaza that is provided by Richard Trask in his book Pictures of the Pain.

1. I located JFK at z223 on the map. Since at z225 JFK is just past aligning with the corner of the west retaining wall from Zapruder's position, I conclude that he would have aligned with it at z223.  So I locate JFK at z223 at the intersection of a line from Zapruder to the corner of the west retaining wall (purple) and a line following the path of JFK at z223 (blue line). [Since the left side of the limo was close to the left side of that lane, JFK would have been about 6 feet from the left lane marker and a similar distance from the right lane marker.]
2. I then draw a line (red)from the SN to the position of JFK at z223. I extend a line from the SN perpendicular to the blue line (green).
3. I measure the sin of the angle by measuring the length of the green line and divide it by the length of the red line to the point of intersection at the JFK z223 position.

As far as the shoulder direction of JBC at z225 is concerned, I just don't see much of a turn, if there is any at all.  Perhaps we could estimate the possible range of angle. I would say it is anywhere from 0 to 10 degrees right.