The First Shot

[Charles Collins]

It is important to try to get this right. Here is how I determined the angle.  I used a scan of a scale map of Dealey Plaza that is provided by Richard Trask in his book Pictures of the Pain.

1. I located JFK at z223 on the map. Since at z225 JFK is just past aligning with the corner of the west retaining wall from Zapruder's position, I conclude that he would have aligned with it at z223.  So I locate JFK at z223 at the intersection of a line from Zapruder to the corner of the west retaining wall (purple) and a line following the path of JFK at z223 (blue line). [Since the left side of the limo was close to the left side of that lane, JFK would have been about 6 feet from the left lane marker and a similar distance from the right lane marker.]
2. I then draw a line (red)from the SN to the position of JFK at z223. I extend a line from the SN perpendicular to the blue line (green).
3. I measure the sin of the angle by measuring the length of the green line and divide it by the length of the red line to the point of intersection at the JFK z223 position.

As far as the shoulder direction of JBC at z225 is concerned, I just don't see much of a turn, if there is any at all.  Perhaps we could estimate the possible range of angle. I would say it is anywhere from 0 to 10 degrees right.

I believe that if you select the southeast corner window as the sniper’s nest, instead of the next one over, that you might be a little more accurate.

It appears to me that JBC is in the process of turning to his left (back towards the front of the limo) during the span of time shown in those frames. The limo is moving hence all the angles are changing during that span. But it appears to me that he is moving in that direction.

Edit:  I just recalled that the shadow line created by the bar (I call it a roll bar) that runs across the limo above and in front of JBC can be seen in the Zapruder frames. And that it helped me in positioning the JBC figure in my 3D computer model. The free computer program that I use allows the date to be entered so that the position of the sun is correct for 12:30 pm on 11/22/63. And that the JBC figure in my 3D model needed to be turned a certain amount for the shadow to fall across it the same way it appears in the Zapruder frame. I posted this stuff here a while back.  I will have to dig that out and find the exact angle that worked for JBC”s position.

[Andrew Mason]

I believe that if you select the southeast corner window as the sniper’s nest, instead of the next one over, that you might be a little more accurate.

You are right again!  Thanks for pointing that out. It does make a big difference: the angle measures 9.5 degrees not 12.5:



  Depending on how accurate the blue line is in identifying the angle of the car path I suppose one could get another degree or so less so 8 or 8.5 degrees would be possible.  Sorry about causing confusion there - entirely my fault.

[Charles Collins]

You are right again!  Thanks for pointing that out. It does make a big difference: the angle measures 9.5 degrees not 12.5:



  Depending on how accurate the blue line is in identifying the angle of the car path I suppose one could get another degree or so less so 8 or 8.5 degrees would be possible.  Sorry about causing confusion there - entirely my fault.

I tried the sine, inverse sine method on the lines that I drew on Don Roberdeau’s map. And calculated 8.1-degrees. Which is essentially what the protractor indicated. And a line connecting Zapruder’s position to the estimated Z223 point of the limousine and extended to the west retaining wall, hits the wall a foot or two south of the 45-degree corner. So if your estimated position of JFK is accurate, then perhaps the points indicated on Roberdeau’s map are supposed to be the center of the limo, just guessing.

[John Tonkovich]

I tried the sine, inverse sine method on the lines that I drew on Don Roberdeau’s map. And calculated 8.1-degrees. Which is essentially what the protractor indicated. And a line connecting Zapruder’s position to the estimated Z223 point of the limousine and extended to the west retaining wall, hits the wall a foot or two south of the 45-degree corner. So if your estimated position of JFK is accurate, then perhaps the points indicated on Roberdeau’s map are supposed to be the center of the limo, just guessing.

Roberdeau's map is amazingly inaccurate.

[Charles Collins]

Roberdeau's map is amazingly inaccurate.

Instead of just complaining about how wrong everything is, why don’t you actually do something about it? Here is Don Roberdeau’s words which invite anyone to do just that:

“Your comments, and your specific referenced critiques are always welcomed.

Any + all of your referenced information will be considered for inclusion for our DP

map when you email me via my contact information.”

Here is the web page where I found the above invitation (just for you):

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/8957-dealey-plaza-detailed-map-by-donald-roberdeau/

[John Tonkovich]

Instead of just complaining about how wrong everything is, why don’t you actually do something about it? Here is Don Roberdeau’s words which invite anyone to do just that:

“Your comments, and your specific referenced critiques are always welcomed.

Any + all of your referenced information will be considered for inclusion for our DP

map when you email me via my contact information.”

Here is the web page where I found the above invitation (just for you):

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/8957-dealey-plaza-detailed-map-by-donald-roberdeau/

Many times, I have directed users to Robert West.

[Charles Collins]

Many times, I have directed users to Robert West.

Q: Are there any reasons why this plat is an incomplete drawing?

A: This is what the FBI agent instructed me to show on this plat, these features.

Q: Mr. West, I direct your attention -- no, I will ask you something prior to that. Would you please step down from the witness stand and come over here?

A: Yes.

MR. SCIAMBRA: Your Honor, for the sake of convenience, provided I speak in a loud voice and provided Mr. West speaks in a loud voice, can I ask him questions from here?

THE COURT: Yes, but speak up.

BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: I notice in the center lane of that which you have depicted as Elm Street there are numerals close to small dots. Can you please tell the Gentlemen of the Jury what those numbers represent and what the dots represent?

A: The number represents the frame number of the Zapruder film. The dot represents the location of President Kennedy in the limousine when the particular frame was shot.

MR. DYMOND: We object to that unless this gentlemen can testify to that of his own knowledge, Your Honor. Unless he measured where the President was each time it would be based purely on hearsay.

MR. SCIAMBRA: I am asking the question.

BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: Why did you place the dot in the frame number in a particular location which is shown on this plat?

A: On the instructions of the FBI agent.

MR. DYMOND: We object to it and ask the Jury be instructed to disregard it.

THE COURT: I so instruct the Jury. Disregard the last remark.



So John, exactly why do you direct people to a map that the FBI had control of creating?

[John Tonkovich]

Q: Are there any reasons why this plat is an incomplete drawing?

A: This is what the FBI agent instructed me to show on this plat, these features.

Q: Mr. West, I direct your attention -- no, I will ask you something prior to that. Would you please step down from the witness stand and come over here?

A: Yes.

MR. SCIAMBRA: Your Honor, for the sake of convenience, provided I speak in a loud voice and provided Mr. West speaks in a loud voice, can I ask him questions from here?

THE COURT: Yes, but speak up.

BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: I notice in the center lane of that which you have depicted as Elm Street there are numerals close to small dots. Can you please tell the Gentlemen of the Jury what those numbers represent and what the dots represent?

A: The number represents the frame number of the Zapruder film. The dot represents the location of President Kennedy in the limousine when the particular frame was shot.

MR. DYMOND: We object to that unless this gentlemen can testify to that of his own knowledge, Your Honor. Unless he measured where the President was each time it would be based purely on hearsay.

MR. SCIAMBRA: I am asking the question.

BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: Why did you place the dot in the frame number in a particular location which is shown on this plat?

A: On the instructions of the FBI agent.

MR. DYMOND: We object to it and ask the Jury be instructed to disregard it.

THE COURT: I so instruct the Jury. Disregard the last remark.



So John, exactly why do you direct people to a map that the FBI had control of creating?

Because it's accurate.