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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 165890 times)

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #424 on: December 31, 2020, 06:27:22 PM »
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I think showing Rosemary Willis's reactions starting at Z-204 can be misleading. Here's a fuller clip below. To me she is fully stopped before 204 and at about frame ~190. And she is slowing down well before that. Again: why? On the other hand, if she heard a shot wouldn't she immediately stop and not "slow" stop? Trying to figure this out is maddening.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 12:23:12 AM by Steve M. Galbraith »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #424 on: December 31, 2020, 06:27:22 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #425 on: December 31, 2020, 09:38:09 PM »
Mr Price was not called to testify. Gee, I wonder why  ::)


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #426 on: January 01, 2021, 02:08:47 AM »
I think showing Rosemary Willis's reactions starting at Z-204 can be misleading. Here's a fuller clip below. To me she is fully stopped before 204 and at about frame ~190. And she is slowing down well before that. Again: why?
Maybe she began to realize as the limo proceeded down Elm Street faster than she could run that there was no point in running after it. She slowed gradually. Her feet continued to move until z198.

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On the other hand, if she heard a shot wouldn't she immediately stop and not "slow" stop? Trying to figure this out is maddening.
Of course, if she had already decided to slow down before she heard the shot and the shot occurred while slowing..... one would not be able to tell when the shot occurred by watching her slow down.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #426 on: January 01, 2021, 02:08:47 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #427 on: January 01, 2021, 02:48:34 PM »
Rosemary Willis turns her head suddenly at 204-207:

Please explain how you know that she does not do this in response to the first shot. 

I am not claiming that she is not responding to the first shot.
It is you who is claiming that she is responding to the first shot.
Please explain how you know she is responding to the first shot
Actually, don't bother as it is something you are clearly making up.
You don't have a clue what she's doing.

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The problem is not that the Secret Service agents did not respond.  The problem is that we can't see them respond.  We can only see Landis and Hill after z212 and frames 208-211 are missing.

The problem most certainly is that the Secret Service agents did not respond.
As far as your proposal that Rosemary is responding to the first shot is concerned, the problem is 100% that the agents did not respond.
I don't understand how you can suggest otherwise.
In the Gif below we can see both Willis and the SS in the same shot. You are proposing that the little girl has responded to a shot while the SS agents, just feet away, have not responded. I won't ask for an explanation of this anomaly as we seem to have left 'being reasonable' far behind.




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Jack Ready lifts his right hand off the front hand-hold and starts to turn his body to the right at z199.  By z207 his right arm is down by his side. He said he turned around to his right in response to the first shot.

This issue has been dealt with at least four times in this thread. It is incompetent research to suggest Landis said he turned to his right and this is what we see in the Z-film. He actually says he turns to his 'right rear'. We do not see this in the Z-film, this is not up for debate. We do not see it.
What a bore it is to have to clear up the same incompetence over and over again.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 02:50:47 PM by Dan O'meara »

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #428 on: January 01, 2021, 08:33:56 PM »
Here's more on Rosemary Willis (spelled as Rose Mary Willis in the HSCA account). This is from Pat Speer's website; these are all from him so he deserves full credit. Notice the critical changes in her accounts over the years?

"Ms. Willis said she was aware of three shots being fired. She gave no information on the direction or location of the shots, but stated that her father became upset when the policeman in the area appeared to run away from where he thought the shots came from; that is, they were running away from the grassy knoll." (6-3-79 article by David Lui, as found in the Syracuse Herald Journal)

(When asked why she stopped chasing the Presidential limousine) "I stopped when I heard the shot.” (Interview with Dallas Times-Herald reporter Marcia Smith-Durk, published 6-3-79)

"In that first split second, I thought it was a firecracker. But maybe within one tenth of a second, I knew it was a gunshot...I think I probably turned to look toward the noise, toward the Book Depository." (6-5-79 UPI article found in the Reading Eagle)

"I heard three shots and they all came from across the street from the direction of the book depository...Oswald was up there as clear as can be. I think he was up there on purpose to make people think he was the one. The sounds I heard came from the book depository but they weren’t necessarily the shots that killed him. Someone with a gun with a silencer could have been in the gutter where they later found shells, or on the railroad trestle or behind the wall.” (11-19-93 article in USA Today)

"For 30 of her 40 years, Rosemary Roach has lived trapped inside a few grainy frames of film, a little girl in a red, checked dress perpetually running across Dealey Plaza. "I will never forget it as long as I live," Roach says of the day three decades ago, when she watched the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and was captured running alongside the motorcade in a famous home movie of the tragedy. "It was the most frightening experience I ever had." But Roach says she saw more than just the shot that killed Kennedy as his limousine passed the old Texas School Book Depository. She says she saw the gunsmoke of a second gunman - evidence of a conspiracy. Thirty years after the assassination - and hundreds of books, movies and documentaries on the subject - conspiracy theories abound, undiluted even by a spate of new analyses that agree with the Warren Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone, killed the president... For her part, Roach is sure there was a conspiracy. She says she heard four shots - not three, as was concluded by the Warren Commission. She believes she saw a man in a storm sewer near the site, a man who some theorists say was a conspirator. She insists at least one shot came from the grassy knoll, a hillock from which many believe a second gunman was firing. At the moment of the fatal head shot, she says, she spotted a puff of smoke atop the knoll. 'It was definitely gunsmoke,' Roach says." (Interview with Texas Monthly, published November, 1998)

“As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they’d just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard…And the pigeons immediately ascended off that roof of the school book depository building and that’s what caught my eye…Next thing I know, right after that, there’s another shot. And after that, there’s another shot and another shot…My ears heard four shots…I really think that there were six, but I heard four and I’ll tell you why…the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder. And the next one, right after that, still came from the right but not from as far back, it was up some. Still behind me, but not as far back as the other one.  And the next one that came was from the grassy knoll and I saw the smoke coming through the trees, into the air… Fragments of his head ascended into the air, and from my vision, focal point, the smoke and fragments, you know, everything met."

The material above was taken from here: http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #428 on: January 01, 2021, 08:33:56 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #429 on: January 01, 2021, 09:16:29 PM »
The following is an account from David V. Hardness, DPD, who was stationed at the intersection of Main and Houston very close to the position of the Hughes film camera. He appears in the Hughes film about the time of the first shot. This is from an interview of Harkness that is part of “No More Silence” by Larry A. Sneed.

I was on the northwest corner of the intersection when I saw the parade coming west on Main and making the turn onto Houston. I was looking at the President, made eye contact with him, and he waved at me. As soon as the motorcade passed, the people that were standing near the intersection where I was kind of walked back. So, when the motorcade made the turn to go down Elm Street, they went back to the grassy area there in the median between Main and Elm to get a better view of him. So I kind of followed the crowd. As the first shot rang out, then the second, I saw the President’s head jerk. Then, as the third shot was fired, Mrs. Kennedy came out of the car and was on all fours on the trunk lid of the car. At the time, I was probably 150–200 feet from the car at the edge of the grassy median between Main and Elm, not far from where my motor was parked at the intersection. The sounds were loud reports. It seemed like there was more time between the first and the second shots than between the second and the third. The second and the third were pretty close together. Due to the echo pattern in Dealey Plaza, though, I was unable to tell the direction of the shots.

It is one of the clearest indications from the eyewitnesses that the first shot was the one that missed.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #430 on: January 01, 2021, 09:53:23 PM »
I am not claiming that she is not responding to the first shot.
It is you who is claiming that she is responding to the first shot.
I merely said that IF she is responding to the first shot then that would put the first shot before then.  (She later said that she looked back toward the TSBD after the first shot and she saw pigeons flying away).   YOU,  on the other hand say that such a possibility has been debunked. I was just asking you to explain why you think you have debunked the possibility that her head turn could not be a response to the first shot.

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As far as your proposal that Rosemary is responding to the first shot is concerned, the problem is 100% that the agents did not respond.
I don't understand how you can suggest otherwise.
[Correction: In a previous post I confused Landis with McIntyre.  We see Hill and McIntyre on the left side not Landis. Landis was on the right, behind Ready.  Sorry for that error.]

We can't say that no SS agents reacted when we cannot see 100% of the SS agents. Wwe can only see two of them (Hill and McIntyre) for more than half a second after the time that I suggest that the first shot occurred. And those we do see do what they said they did immediately after the first shot (Ready, Hill). McIntyre appears to  be leaning left to check the left side of the limo.  He did not provide a statement so we don't have anything to refer his actions to.

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In the Gif below we can see both Willis and the SS in the same shot. You are proposing that the little girl has responded to a shot while the SS agents, just feet away, have not responded. I won't ask for an explanation of this anomaly as we seem to have left 'being reasonable' far behind.
I merely disagree with your premise that they did not respond. Ready responded 5 frames earlier when he began his right turn by removing his right hand from the front handhold. Hill turned his gaze to the President and was watching him react. You seem to be expecting them to react in ways that they said they did not.


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This issue has been dealt with at least four times in this thread. It is incompetent research to suggest Landis said he turned to his right and this is what we see in the Z-film. He actually says he turns to his 'right rear'. We do not see this in the Z-film, this is not up for debate. We do not see it.
What a bore it is to have to clear up the same incompetence over and over again.
Landis gave a long detailed statement 8 days after the events. In his statement he said he first looked at the president. We do not see him in the zfilm after z207 at which time he is looking at the president.  When he is next seen in Altgens #5 at z255 he is looking right, toward the bystanders and TSBD. We don't know when he turned to the right between z207 and z255
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 06:38:24 PM by Andrew Mason »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #431 on: January 01, 2021, 10:01:20 PM »
The following is an account from David V. Hardness, DPD, who was stationed at the intersection of Main and Houston very close to the position of the Hughes film camera. He appears in the Hughes film about the time of the first shot. This is from an interview of Harkness that is part of “No More Silence” by Larry A. Sneed.

I was on the northwest corner of the intersection when I saw the parade coming west on Main and making the turn onto Houston. I was looking at the President, made eye contact with him, and he waved at me. As soon as the motorcade passed, the people that were standing near the intersection where I was kind of walked back. So, when the motorcade made the turn to go down Elm Street, they went back to the grassy area there in the median between Main and Elm to get a better view of him. So I kind of followed the crowd. As the first shot rang out, then the second, I saw the President’s head jerk. Then, as the third shot was fired, Mrs. Kennedy came out of the car and was on all fours on the trunk lid of the car. At the time, I was probably 150–200 feet from the car at the edge of the grassy median between Main and Elm, not far from where my motor was parked at the intersection. The sounds were loud reports. It seemed like there was more time between the first and the second shots than between the second and the third. The second and the third were pretty close together. Due to the echo pattern in Dealey Plaza, though, I was unable to tell the direction of the shots.

It is one of the clearest indications from the eyewitnesses that the first shot was the one that missed.
At 200 feet away from the events, in a crowd, looking across the entire space between Main and Elm how would he provide a clearer indication than the Connallys and the occupants of the Secret Service car who watched the president and saw him react to the first shot?  If the first shot occurred at z150 or so as you suggest, his view would have been blocked by trees and retaining walls.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #431 on: January 01, 2021, 10:01:20 PM »