The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

The point on which we disagree is your hunch that JFK was shot in the neck 110 ms before z225.  The zfilm does not tell us that.  That is you.  That is your guess based on no evidence. Your intuition is not evidence. And I am merely pointing out that your intuition conflicts with the known evidence.

I get it. I've not provided the evidence that "JFK was shot in the neck 110ms before z225"

There has been a lot of info in my last few posts and this may have gone under the radar:

“The average reaction time for a visual stimulus is about 250 milliseconds. The average reaction time for an auditory stimulus is about 170 milliseconds and for a touch stimulus 150 milliseconds.”
[https://www.onaverage.co.uk/other-averages/average-reaction-time]

So, for a simple touch stimulus we're looking at a reaction time of around 150 ms. But JFK's body is reacting to severe trauma. I found this on the McAdams website:

"While human reaction times tend to require hundreds of milliseconds, "One of the fastest [neural feedback] loops is from arm sensors to spinal cord and back out to arm muscles: it takes 110 milliseconds for feedback corrections to be made to an arm movement." (William H. Calvin, "The unitary hypothesis: A common neural circuitry for novel manipulations, language, plan-ahead, and throwing?" in Tools, Language, and Cognition in Human Evolution, edited by Kathleen R. Gibson and Tim Ingold. Cambridge University Press, pp. 230-250, [1993].)

So there could already be a reaction of a subject's arms in as early as 110 milliseconds, the equivalent of two Zapruder frames. But, of course, with JFK and Gov. Connally shot between 223 and 224, we should not be able to discern a significant reaction before frame 226. While only a few milliseconds later, this would still be too late.

However, an experiment cited by conspiracist Milicent Cranor demonstrates that even less time may be required.

Cranor summarizes a study published in the British journal, Brain (Brown P, Rothwell JC, Thompson PD, Britton TC, Day BL, and Marsden CD. New observations on the normal auditory startle reflex in man. Brain 1991; 114:1891-1902):

Auditory Stimulus Response Times in Milliseconds (m/s)
The following figures come from a study by Brown et al, published in the British journal, Brain. The authors tested the latency period (time it takes to respond) of the auditory startle reflex in 12 healthy volunteers ranging in age from 18 to 80 years. While relaxing in a chair, the subjects were randomly treated about every 20 minutes to a tone burst of 124 decibels, the equivalent BANG! of a car backfire 20 feet away. The average latency period of the relevant muscle groups in milliseconds:

Neck: 58 m/s (range 40-136 m/s)
Paraspinal muscles: 60 m/s (range: 48-120 m/s)

Forearm Flexors: 82 m/s (range: 60-200 m/s)

Forearm Extensors: 73 m/s (range 62-173 m/s)

Thumb: 99 m/s (range 75-179 m/s)

Back of Hand: 99 m/s (range 72-176 m/s)

The authors concluded:

"The most generalized startle response to the standard sound stimulus employed consisted of eye closure, grimacing, neck flexion, trunk flexion, slight abduction of the arms, flexion of the elbows and pronation of the forearms. There was considerable variation in the degree to which this response was expressed, and in some subjects only eye closure and flexion of the neck was apparent."

[See Cranor, "Neurology and Jiggle Analysis"]

The experiment demonstrated that, in response to an auditory stimulus, quantifiable physical reactions can be observed occurring most quickly in muscles the shortest distance from the brain: in the neck as quickly as 40 milliseconds (less than one Zapruder frame), in the paraspinal muscles as quickly as 48 milliseconds (less than one Zapruder frame), in the forearm flexors as quickly as 60 milliseconds (slightly more than one Zapruder frame), in the forearm extensors as quickly as 62 milliseconds (slightly more than one Zapruder frame), in the thumb as quickly as 75 milliseconds, and in the back of the hand as quickly as 72 milliseconds.

Hit the start button above to see frames where Kennedy and Connally are hit by the Single Bullet. Note that Kennedy's hand is moving downward between Zapruder Frames 224 and 225. Connally's torso hunches between 224 and 225, and both men have shocked expressions on their faces. Clip produced by Ken McDonald.
This means that it is possible for JFK and Gov. Connally, if struck between frames 223 and 224, to display quantifiable reactions originating in the men's necks and paraspinal muscles — and, depending on how many milliseconds elapsed between the shot and the exposure of frame 224, possibly even their forearm flexors, forearm extensors, and hands — as early as frame 225."


There is solid science behind such a quick reaction time.
A hit at z223 could indeed trigger the beginnings of the extreme, co-ordinated and rapid reactions that are unequivocally shown in the Z-film.

[Andrew Mason]

I get it. I've not provided the evidence that "JFK was shot in the neck 110ms before z225"

There has been a lot of info in my last few posts and this may have gone under the radar:

“The average reaction time for a visual stimulus is about 250 milliseconds. The average reaction time for an auditory stimulus is about 170 milliseconds and for a touch stimulus 150 milliseconds.”
[https://www.onaverage.co.uk/other-averages/average-reaction-time]

So, for a simple touch stimulus we're looking at a reaction time of around 150 ms. But JFK's body is reacting to severe trauma.

Yes. But we don't know whether JFK's reaction is to:
1.  the bullet strike; or
2.  the impairment of bodily function caused by the bullet;

Being shot does not always cause an immediate "reflex" reaction.

I found this on the McAdams website:

"While human reaction times tend to require hundreds of milliseconds, "One of the fastest [neural feedback] loops is from arm sensors to spinal cord and back out to arm muscles: it takes 110 milliseconds for feedback corrections to be made to an arm movement." (William H. Calvin, "The unitary hypothesis: A common neural circuitry for novel manipulations, language, plan-ahead, and throwing?" in Tools, Language, and Cognition in Human Evolution, edited by Kathleen R. Gibson and Tim Ingold. Cambridge University Press, pp. 230-250, [1993].)

So there could already be a reaction of a subject's arms in as early as 110 milliseconds, the equivalent of two Zapruder frames. But, of course, with JFK and Gov. Connally shot between 223 and 224, we should not be able to discern a significant reaction before frame 226. While only a few milliseconds later, this would still be too late.

However, an experiment cited by conspiracist Milicent Cranor demonstrates that even less time may be required.

Cranor summarizes a study published in the British journal, Brain (Brown P, Rothwell JC, Thompson PD, Britton TC, Day BL, and Marsden CD. New observations on the normal auditory startle reflex in man. Brain 1991; 114:1891-1902):

Auditory Stimulus Response Times in Milliseconds (m/s)
The following figures come from a study by Brown et al, published in the British journal, Brain. The authors tested the latency period (time it takes to respond) of the auditory startle reflex in 12 healthy volunteers ranging in age from 18 to 80 years. While relaxing in a chair, the subjects were randomly treated about every 20 minutes to a tone burst of 124 decibels, the equivalent BANG! of a car backfire 20 feet away. The average latency period of the relevant muscle groups in milliseconds:

Neck: 58 m/s (range 40-136 m/s)
Paraspinal muscles: 60 m/s (range: 48-120 m/s)

Forearm Flexors: 82 m/s (range: 60-200 m/s)

Forearm Extensors: 73 m/s (range 62-173 m/s)

Thumb: 99 m/s (range 75-179 m/s)

Back of Hand: 99 m/s (range 72-176 m/s)

The authors concluded:

"The most generalized startle response to the standard sound stimulus employed consisted of eye closure, grimacing, neck flexion, trunk flexion, slight abduction of the arms, flexion of the elbows and pronation of the forearms. There was considerable variation in the degree to which this response was expressed, and in some subjects only eye closure and flexion of the neck was apparent."

[See Cranor, "Neurology and Jiggle Analysis"]

The experiment demonstrated that, in response to an auditory stimulus, quantifiable physical reactions can be observed occurring most quickly in muscles the shortest distance from the brain: in the neck as quickly as 40 milliseconds (less than one Zapruder frame), in the paraspinal muscles as quickly as 48 milliseconds (less than one Zapruder frame), in the forearm flexors as quickly as 60 milliseconds (slightly more than one Zapruder frame), in the forearm extensors as quickly as 62 milliseconds (slightly more than one Zapruder frame), in the thumb as quickly as 75 milliseconds, and in the back of the hand as quickly as 72 milliseconds.

Hit the start button above to see frames where Kennedy and Connally are hit by the Single Bullet. Note that Kennedy's hand is moving downward between Zapruder Frames 224 and 225. Connally's torso hunches between 224 and 225, and both men have shocked expressions on their faces. Clip produced by Ken McDonald.
This means that it is possible for JFK and Gov. Connally, if struck between frames 223 and 224, to display quantifiable reactions originating in the men's necks and paraspinal muscles — and, depending on how many milliseconds elapsed between the shot and the exposure of frame 224, possibly even their forearm flexors, forearm extensors, and hands — as early as frame 225."

If the reaction of JFK is to the sound of the shot that struck at z223, you have to also take into account the fact that the sound would have arrived 77 ms. after the bullet hit ie. more than one frame after z223 (at 20 degrees C the speed of sound is 1127 feet/sec so the sound takes 177 ms to travel 200 feet whereas the bullet travelling at 2000 fps avg. takes 100 ms. to cover that distance).

There is solid science behind such a quick reaction time.
A hit at z223 could indeed trigger the beginnings of the extreme, co-ordinated and rapid reactions that are unequivocally shown in the Z-film.

But there is not solid evidence that the reaction we see in z225 is the beginning of ANY reaction. We also cannot tell what specific stimulus it is in reaction to. It is certainly not in reaction to sound that has not yet reached his ears or reached his ears less than 50 ms. earlier.  It could be a gradual reaction to being hit followed by a more demonstrative reaction when he tried to breathe.

Other reasons the reaction in z225 is not to being hit at z223:

The fact remains that the evidence is that JFK was struck after z186 and before z202.  Phil Willis' photo, according to his evidence, was taken just after the sound of the shot.  Do you think he was lying about that?  (Jerry does).  Because if he was just mistaken about that and the first shot was at z223, you have to explain how it is that:
1. his daughter Linda also pinpointed the first shot at that time (when JFK was between her and the Stemmons sign - z195-205) (or, if you were Jerry, why she also lied);
2. why TE Moore and Jeanette Hooker said that the first shot occurred just before the President reached the Thornton freeway sign. (z200); (or, if you were Jerry, why they also lied)
3. why occupants of the VP security car said that the first shot occurred just before they completed the turn onto Elm. (z190-210).(or, if you were Jerry, why they also lied)

One would also then have to explain why so many people mistakenly recalled the third shot as being the last, because a first shot at z223 does not fit the 1.......2....3 pattern if the last was at z313.
etc.

[Andrew Mason]

So here we have an example of the sleaze-bag defense attorney going at it. Re-defining the narrative through recasting what I said. O'meara knows about it.

I said Phil Willis said a "white lie" (not a Big Lie like you traffic in) about his picture being taken "simultaneously" with the sound of the first shot.

Ok. I see. I was correct in saying that you allege that Phil Willis lied, just a sleaze bag for failing to distinguish it as "white" and not "Big".  I am not sure why a white lie cannot be a big lie.  The "white" lie that the U.S. civil war was not about keeping slavery" was a pretty big one.

If Willis took his Z202 slide between shots 1 and 2 (say, Z155 and Z222), then it was taken in the midst of shots and echoing, so it could be said his slide was "simultaneous" with the shots, but not the precise moment of the first shot.

You do realize that you are supporting the point I was making which was that the shot  was before Willis' z202 photo and, therefore, it was BEFORE z223.  Are you sure you want to be supporting the sleaze bag defence lawyer's argument?

Objection! I didn't say Linda Willis lied. I suggested she got the Stemmons sign confused with the Thornton sign. She can only see the President and a sign beyond when he is between her and the Thornton sign. She can't see the President at all when he's between her and the Stemmons sign.

I see. Your theory is that she just happened to be mistaken in a way that fits perfectly with the "white" lie told by her father. And her sister just happened to turn her head suddenly toward the TSBD at a time that fits her mistake and her father's lie father (oh, and fits with Moore,  Hooker, the occupants of the VP security car etc.). I understand.

Therefore the second shot occurred about Z220-to-Z240 (I prefer the earlier Z220s because of the simultaneous reaction of both men as they emerge from behind the sign).

So you think they could be reacting before the shot that they were reacting to occurred??

Even if we go with the Z240s as the second shot and team it with your Z195ish "first" shot, that'll get you a 1.....2.......3 shot pattern.

The shot spanning for, say, Z155-to-Z222-to-Z313 is 1.....2.......3. More evenly-spaced.

But if the second shot occurred at z271 as I suggest, that fits the 1.........2....3 pattern. It also fits Greer's turn, the unusual forward movement of JBC, the movement of the wrist or hat, JFK hair flip reported by Hickey etc.

[Dan O'meara]

Yes. But we don't know whether JFK's reaction is to:
1.  the bullet strike; or
2.  the impairment of bodily function caused by the bullet;

Being shot does not always cause an immediate "reflex" reaction.
If the reaction of JFK is to the sound of the shot that struck at z223, you have to also take into account the fact that the sound would have arrived 77 ms. after the bullet hit ie. more than one frame after z223 (at 20 degrees C the speed of sound is 1127 feet/sec so the sound takes 177 ms to travel 200 feet whereas the bullet travelling at 2000 fps avg. takes 100 ms. to cover that distance). But there is not solid evidence that the reaction we see in z225 is the beginning of ANY reaction. We also cannot tell what specific stimulus it is in reaction to. It is certainly not in reaction to sound that has not yet reached his ears or reached his ears less than 50 ms. earlier.  It could be a gradual reaction to being hit followed by a more demonstrative reaction when he tried to breathe.

Other reasons the reaction in z225 is not to being hit at z223:

The fact remains that the evidence is that JFK was struck after z186 and before z202.  Phil Willis' photo, according to his evidence, was taken just after the sound of the shot.  Do you think he was lying about that?  (Jerry does).  Because if he was just mistaken about that and the first shot was at z223, you have to explain how it is that:
1. his daughter Linda also pinpointed the first shot at that time (when JFK was between her and the Stemmons sign - z195-205) (or, if you were Jerry, why she also lied);
2. why TE Moore and Jeanette Hooker said that the first shot occurred just before the President reached the Thornton freeway sign. (z200); (or, if you were Jerry, why they also lied)
3. why occupants of the VP security car said that the first shot occurred just before they completed the turn onto Elm. (z190-210).(or, if you were Jerry, why they also lied)

One would also then have to explain why so many people mistakenly recalled the third shot as being the last, because a first shot at z223 does not fit the 1.......2....3 pattern if the last was at z313.
etc.

I have presented a detailed analysis of the Z-film highlighting multiple extreme and rapid reactions.
These extreme reactions all occur at the same time. That is to say they are co-ordinated.
The extreme, rapid and co-ordinated reactions I have highlighted are unequivocally present in the Z-film.

You were unconvinced that such reactions could be related to a stimulus only 110 milliseconds beforehand.
I provided hard science to demonstrate that they could.

Your response is poor, to say the least.
Meaningless, nothing statements - "Being shot does not always cause an immediate "reflex" reaction."
Your usual  straw man - "If the reaction of JFK is to the sound of the shot that struck at z223, you have to also take into account the fact that the sound would have arrived 77 ms. after the bullet hit"   [WTF!!]
And wheeling out the handful of contradictory witness statements that support your failed model. You're faith in their testimony is revealed in the question - "Do you think he was lying about that?" Really?

Reasoned debate has left the building.

[Andrew Mason]

I have presented a detailed analysis of the Z-film highlighting multiple extreme and rapid reactions.
These extreme reactions all occur at the same time. That is to say they are co-ordinated.
The extreme, rapid and co-ordinated reactions I have highlighted are unequivocally present in the Z-film.

You were unconvinced that such reactions could be related to a stimulus only 110 milliseconds beforehand.

No. That is not what I was unconvinced about. Certainly a reaction CAN occur 110 ms. after a stimulus. I have never said otherwise. The issue is whether the reaction seen in z225 was due to a bullet striking him at z223. To establish that it was, one has to show: 1) that JFK was not reacting before z225 and that, therefore z225 is the beginning of any reaction; and 2) that the kind of reaction he is exhibiting had to have occurred within 110 ms from the bullet impact. You have not demonstrated either.

I provided hard science to demonstrate that they could.

Your response is poor, to say the least.
Meaningless, nothing statements - "Being shot does not always cause an immediate "reflex" reaction."
Your usual  straw man - "If the reaction of JFK is to the sound of the shot that struck at z223, you have to also take into
                                           account the fact that the sound would have arrived 77 ms. after the bullet hit"   [WTF!!]
And wheeling out the handful of contradictory witness statements that support your failed model. You're faith in their testimony is revealed in the question - "Do you think he was lying about that?" Really?

Reasoned debate has left the building.

I see that.

[Dan O'meara]

No. That is not what I was unconvinced about. Certainly a reaction CAN occur 110 ms. after a stimulus. I have never said otherwise. The issue is whether the reaction seen in z225 was due to a bullet striking him at z223. To establish that it was, one has to show: 1) that JFK was not reacting before z225 and that, therefore z225 is the beginning of any reaction; and 2) that the kind of reaction he is exhibiting had to have occurred within 110 ms from the bullet impact. You have not demonstrated either.

"1) that JFK was not reacting before z225"

Two of the reactions I've highlighted clearly demonstrate that the reactions @ z225 were the first reactions.
The argument concerning JFK's left arm/hand shows JFK in exactly that position for the duration of the Z-film from the first appearance of the presidential limo (z133) until the first reaction at z225.
His left arm/hand are in exactly the same position as JFK travels down Elm St., as he passes behind the Stemmons sign and, most importantly, as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
The Z-film shows this continuity of the left arm/hand position.
Suddenly, at z225, his left arm/hand begins to rocket up from his side at a tremendous speed. Up until this point it has been in a relaxed state, down by his side.
JFK's bunched fists flying up to his throat and his elbows extending high in the air, can hardly be disputed as a reaction to being shot through the throat. The very first part of this movement occurs at z225. The incredible speed at which this physical action happens is indicative of a reflex reaction, which would be the first reaction to such trauma.
The Z-film is showing us JFK's first reaction to being shot.

The same arguments apply for the extremely rapid movements of JBC's right arm/hand. He is in exactly the same position as he moves behind the Stemmons sign as he is when he emerges from behind - sat upright, calm and composed, looking towards the people lining Elm St to his right.
His Stetson hat is resting on his lap for the duration of this part of the Z-film. Suddenly it rockets up in front of his face, within one third of a second. It is an incredibly quick physical movement, prior to which his hand has been at rest. We see this in the Z-film before the sign and after it. The Z-film shows us this continuity of right arm/hand position. Which suddenly explodes into action at exactly the same time JFK suddenly explodes into action.

In both cases we are seeing extreme, reflex reactions (demonstrated by the incredible speed of the physical movements from a state of rest).
As reflex reactions they are the first reactions.
In both cases we are seeing the 'resting positions' before and after the Stemmons sign.
There can be little doubt the Z-film shows us the first reactions are at z225.
What happens behind the sign is of no relevance as we see the continuity of 'resting positions' in the Z-film.


"2) that the kind of reaction he is exhibiting had to have occurred within 110 ms from the bullet impact".

This point seems phrased in a strange way (or maybe I'm just a bit tired).
I am not saying reacting to being shot 110 ms after impact is the only option.
I'm saying that a reaction this quickly after being shot is a perfectly feasible, scientifically proven fact.
Reacting this quickly after being shot is not unusual, I would argue it is to be expected.
But I'm certainly not arguing that this is the only type of reaction there is.

I don't know if that's really dealt with that point.

[Andrew Mason]

"1) that JFK was not reacting before z225"

Two of the reactions I've highlighted clearly demonstrate that the reactions @ z225 were the first reactions.
The argument concerning JFK's left arm/hand shows JFK in exactly that position for the duration of the Z-film from the first appearance of the presidential limo (z133) until the first reaction at z225.
His left arm/hand are in exactly the same position as JFK travels down Elm St., as he passes behind the Stemmons sign and, most importantly, as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
The Z-film shows this continuity of the left arm/hand position.

The resolution of the zfilm is not good enough to say that it is in "exactly the same position".  It is in roughly the same location but the hand posture may be different.  But so what?  It is not as if the left hand is the only part of his body that will react. We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression.  His right hand appears to be forming a fist at z224 and forms a fist by z225.  Your analysis of the left hand does not exclude the very real, if not likely, possibility that z225 is not the beginning of his contorted facial reaction to being shot in the neck.

Suddenly, at z225, his left arm/hand begins to rocket up from his side at a tremendous speed. Up until this point it has been in a relaxed state, down by his side.
JFK's bunched fists flying up to his throat and his elbows extending high in the air, can hardly be disputed as a reaction to being shot through the throat. The very first part of this movement occurs at z225. The incredible speed at which this physical action happens is indicative of a reflex reaction, which would be the first reaction to such trauma.
The Z-film is showing us JFK's first reaction to being shot.

Ok.  So it is your opinion that this reaction of his left hand is a reflex reaction to being shot.  My opinion is that it is not.  The difference is that my opinion is based on evidence (that the shot occurred over a second before z223).

The same arguments apply for the extremely rapid movements of JBC's right arm/hand. He is in exactly the same position as he moves behind the Stemmons sign as he is when he emerges from behind - sat upright, calm and composed, looking towards the people lining Elm St to his right.
His Stetson hat is resting on his lap for the duration of this part of the Z-film. Suddenly it rockets up in front of his face, within one third of a second. It is an incredibly quick physical movement, prior to which his hand has been at rest. We see this in the Z-film before the sign and after it. The Z-film shows us this continuity of right arm/hand position. Which suddenly explodes into action at exactly the same time JFK suddenly explodes into action.

In both cases we are seeing extreme, reflex reactions (demonstrated by the incredible speed of the physical movements from a state of rest).
As reflex reactions they are the first reactions.
In both cases we are seeing the 'resting positions' before and after the Stemmons sign.
There can be little doubt the Z-film shows us the first reactions are at z225.
What happens behind the sign is of no relevance as we see the continuity of 'resting positions' in the Z-film.

What if his face went blank at z202 and he then began the contorted expression first seen in z225 when he emerges from behind the sign?   How can you possibly say that this did not occur?  It was just a coincidence that his face contortion seen on the first frame that we see after he emerges also began in that frame? It is not just a hypothesis he may have reacted earlier. There is evidence that the shot was over a second earlier.

"2) that the kind of reaction he is exhibiting had to have occurred within 110 ms from the bullet impact".

This point seems phrased in a strange way (or maybe I'm just a bit tired).
I am not saying reacting to being shot 110 ms after impact is the only option.
I'm saying that a reaction this quickly after being shot is a perfectly feasible, scientifically proven fact.
Reacting this quickly after being shot is not unusual, I would argue it is to be expected.
But I'm certainly not arguing that this is the only type of reaction there is.

I don't know if that's really dealt with that point.

Ok.  We have made progress.  On this point at least you have not argued the "Thorburn's position" that SBT proponents usually invoke to "prove" that the shot occurred within 3 frames before z226. There is no evidence here of Kennedy having assumed Thorburn's position, which is an involuntary position assumed by quadriplegics due to transverse lesions of the spinal cord at the C6 level.  No nerves were severed in JFK's neck and C6 is well below the bullet path. 

[Dan O'meara]

The resolution of the zfilm is not good enough to say that it is in "exactly the same position".  It is in roughly the same location but the hand posture may be different.  But so what?  It is not as if the left hand is the only part of his body that will react. We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression.  His right hand appears to be forming a fist at z224 and forms a fist by z225.  Your analysis of the left hand does not exclude the very real, if not likely, possibility that z225 is not the beginning of his contorted facial reaction to being shot in the neck.

The resolution isn't good enough to say it's in exactly the same position but it is good enough to read his facial expression?
You've descended into farce.
JFK's left arm is clearly down by his side, it is perfectly clear.
His facial expression? Are you joking?

Ok.  So it is your opinion that this reaction of his left hand is a reflex reaction to being shot.  My opinion is that it is not.  The difference is that my opinion is based on evidence (that the shot occurred over a second before z223).

My opinion is based on the recorded and measurable speed of his physical movements.
What is your evidence? Phil Willis? 

What if his face went blank at z202 and he then began the contorted expression first seen in z225 when he emerges from behind the sign?   How can you possibly say that this did not occur?

The usual  straw man

There is no evidence here of Kennedy having assumed Thorburn's position, which is an involuntary position assumed by quadriplegics due to transverse lesions of the spinal cord at the C6 level.

Wow. Two  straw man arguments in the same post.
We really have made progress

No nerves were severed in JFK's neck and C6 is well below the bullet path.

Cite evidence for this please as it is a point worth discussing (at last)