The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

The resolution isn't good enough to say it's in exactly the same position but it is good enough to read his facial expression?
You've descended into farce.
JFK's left arm is clearly down by his side, it is perfectly clear.

It seems to me that there is a difference in the posture of his left hand in z224 compared to z193 which is the clearest frame prior to him disappearing behind the Stemmons sign.  But I was suggesting that it is not entirely clear because of the poor resolution. I was trying to be generous:


In z193 I see his left hand with the fingers in a somewhat relaxed position but still curled.  In z224 the fingers of the left hand appears to be more clenched together.  But, as I said, the resolution may not be good enough to really be sure.

His facial expression? Are you joking?

You don't see a difference? (comparing z167 to z225):

 

My opinion is based on the recorded and measurable speed of his physical movements.
What is your evidence? Phil Willis?

I think I have provided it.  Also, look at the photos. All I am saying is that the reaction seen in z225 may well have begun within a few frames after being hit just before z200, which is when the evidence indicates the first shot occurred.

The usual  straw man

I said at least you DIDN'T argue the Thorburn position. It would be a straw man if I said you had and then attacked the argument as if you were making it.

Cite evidence for this please as it is a point worth discussing (at last)

Sorry. I should have said that the bullet path was below the C6 vertebra.  The bullet entered the upper back below the cervical (neck) part of the spine.  The autopsy report (Warren Report, Appendix 9, p. 6):

• "The other missile entered the right superior
  posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular
  and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right, side of the neck.
  This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical
  portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles
  of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the
  anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no
  bony structures in its path through the body."

Dr. Lattimer published a paper in 1977 suggesting that the spine at the C6 vertebra suffered an injury from the bullet passing below.  But the Thorburn position requires severance of the spinal cord at C6 and there is no evidence that this occurred.  Lattimer was inferring injury to the spine at C6 from what he thought was the Thorburn position, so the argument gets rather circular. 

The point of mentioning the Thorburn position is that this is the kind of evidence one would need in order to begin to prove that the actions of JFK are tied to the passage of the bullet through the neck.  If the spine at C6 was severed and it was established that a person with such an injury necessarily has the kind of neuromuscular response within 165 ms. of the injury, then this would be evidence that he was struck at z223 or thereabouts. 

As it is, it is just speculation because there is no evidence that the spinal cord was damaged at all, let alone severed at C6.  There is also no documented case establishing that someone with a C6 injury assumes the "Thorburn position" within a few hundred milliseconds of the injury.  The Thorburn position comes from a 19th century medical case of patient L.F. that was written up by a Dr. William Thorburn.  The patient L.F. fell off a ladder and lay on the floor for several hours before anyone saw him.  Four days elapsed before he was admitted to the infirmary where a photograph was taken from which a drawing was made showing the elbows out and the hands and forearms pointing upward as if he was flexing his biceps. Brain Vol. 9, p. 511.

[Dan O'meara]

It seems to me that there is a difference in the posture of his left hand in z224 compared to z193 which is the clearest frame prior to him disappearing behind the Stemmons sign.  But I was suggesting that it is not entirely clear because of the poor resolution. I was trying to be generous:


In z193 I see his left hand with the fingers in a somewhat relaxed position but still curled.  In z224 the fingers of the left hand appears to be more clenched together.  But, as I said, the resolution may not be good enough to really be sure.

The difference in left hand position is really small and left arm is down by his side. What exactly is your point?

You don't see a difference? (comparing z167 to z225):

The difference is clear.
The second image is badly distorted, blurred, grainy and marked.
You really feel confident you can read the expression correctly?

I said at least you DIDN'T argue the Thorburn position. It would be a straw man if I said you had and then attacked the argument as if you were making it.

 
It's great you so readily admit one of your arguments was a  straw man.

Sorry. I should have said that the bullet path was below the C6 vertebra.  The bullet entered the upper back below the cervical (neck) part of the spine.  The autopsy report (Warren Report, Appendix 9, p. 6):

• "The other missile entered the right superior
  posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular
  and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right, side of the neck.
  This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical
  portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles
  of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the
  anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no
  bony structures in its path through the body."

Dr. Lattimer published a paper in 1977 suggesting that the spine at the C6 vertebra suffered an injury from the bullet passing below.  But the Thorburn position requires severance of the spinal cord at C6 and there is no evidence that this occurred.  Lattimer was inferring injury to the spine at C6 from what he thought was the Thorburn position, so the argument gets rather circular. 

The point of mentioning the Thorburn position is that this is the kind of evidence one would need in order to begin to prove that the actions of JFK are tied to the passage of the bullet through the neck.  If the spine at C6 was severed and it was established that a person with such an injury necessarily has the kind of neuromuscular response within 165 ms. of the injury, then this would be evidence that he was struck at z223 or thereabouts. 

As it is, it is just speculation because there is no evidence that the spinal cord was damaged at all, let alone severed at C6.  There is also no documented case establishing that someone with a C6 injury assumes the "Thorburn position" within a few hundred milliseconds of the injury.  The Thorburn position comes from a 19th century medical case of patient L.F. that was written up by a Dr. William Thorburn.  The patient L.F. fell off a ladder and lay on the floor for several hours before anyone saw him.  Four days elapsed before he was admitted to the infirmary where a photograph was taken from which a drawing was made showing the elbows out and the hands and forearms pointing upward as if he was flexing his biceps. Brain Vol. 9, p. 511.

Let's just put the Thorburn thing to one side.



It's clear the bullet that entered JFK's back was close to the spine and high up in the back.
As I understand it no bone was hit (at least not significantly)
If this is the case the chance the bullet missed one of the nerves of the brachial plexus is almost zero.

[Andrew Mason]

The difference in left hand position is really small and left arm is down by his side. What exactly is your point?

?? YOU made the assertion that it was "in exactly the same position" in z224 as before the shot. It wasn't exact and the difference, though small, may be material because it could already be showing reaction.  You are the one saying the left arm is showing no reaction in z224.

The difference is clear.
The second image is badly distorted, blurred, grainy and marked.
You really feel confident you can read the expression correctly?

I can't say he is not already reacting.  That's the issue  Apparently you can.

It's great you so readily admit one of your arguments was a  straw man.

Either you misread what I said or you have a different understanding of what a straw man argument is.

Let's just put the Thorburn thing to one side.



It's clear the bullet that entered JFK's back was close to the spine and high up in the back.
As I understand it no bone was hit (at least not significantly)
If this is the case the chance the bullet missed one of the nerves of the brachial plexus is almost zero.

High up in the back is not the cervical spine. The path appears to be to the right of the thoracic spine below the brachial plexus.

[Dan O'meara]

I can't say he is not already reacting.  That's the issue  Apparently you can.

At no point have I ever tried to argue anything from JFK's facial expressions.
The resolution of the Z-film is clearly not good enough.
Never have I even hinted at using this aspect of the Z-film to determine reactions.
On the contrary - it is you who keeps dragging in JFK's facial expressions as if can you discern something from them. Does this quote ring a bell:

"We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression."

I have pointed out the resolution is not good enough to reach any conclusions using facial reactions but apparently you can reach conclusions from it.
Really?

High up in the back is not the cervical spine. The path appears to be to the right of the thoracic spine below the brachial plexus.

Can you explain this quote from one of your previous posts:

"No nerves were severed in JFK's neck and C6 is well below the bullet path. "

In one moment you're saying the bullet enters JFK's back above the C6 vertebra then your saying the bullet path is below C6 (below the brachial plexus.
It is clear you are willing to say whatever it takes to "win a point".
Constantly introducing  straw man arguments, twisting and misrepresenting what is being said.
Anyone can look over the last few pages and see the contribution I am making and your own contribution.
Your model has failed - passing under the oak tree at the time of your proposed first shot, the impossible ballistics of your proposed second shot and now this - a delay of over a second and a half between being shot and the multiple extreme, rapid and co-ordinated reactions of both JFK and JBC. The speed of these physical reactions is startling, measured in milliseconds. To suggest they come after one and a half seconds is preposterous. One and a half seconds may not seem a long time but it is an eternity when dealing with such rapid reactions.
There is no sane proposal you can make that accounts for this time gap.
Weak attempts at muddying the water - maybe there was some kind of subtle reaction we can't see before z225 - cannot explain the sudden, co-ordinated rapidity of these physical reactions.

Time to move on I think. Let the record speak for itself.

[Dan O'meara]

The bullet passed between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, close to the spinal column.
This is confirmed by a fracture found in JFK's spine:
“There is an undisplaced fracture of the proximal portion of the right transverse process of T1 (or the region of the costovertebral junction)”

 Quote from the report of the HSCA consulting radiologist, G.M. McDonnel, MD, in: HSCA vol.7: 219.
[see https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0115a.htm]

An "undisplaced" fracture is one in which the bones remain aligned indicating a glancing blow by the bullet. This may have affected the trajectory of the bullet through JFK but that is not being considered at this moment. The fracture is of the right transverse process, in accordance with the entry of the bullet slightly to the right of the spine. Looking at this diagram again (obviously the diagram is of the left side of the body but the arguments apply due to the symmetry of the body):



A bullet passing between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, glancing off the transverse process of T1, would almost inevitably sever, or at least severely damage, the nerve marked T1 in the diagram, affecting in particular the Ulnar nerve which has its roots in the "T1" (and C8) nerve. The Ulnar nerve runs the length of the arm, entering the hand where it "flexes the ring and little fingers at the distal interphalangeal joint".
A bullet severing the Ulnar nerve may cause the hand to rapidly contract, however the Ulnar nerve only controls the flexion of the ring and little fingers.
I wish I could find a clearer image than the one below but there is a very strange aspect of JFK's hands in reaction to being shot. One might expect someone to 'clutch' at their throat if they were shot there but JFK doesn't do this. Instead he appears to clench his hands into fists and thrusts them under the area of his chin.
But even this is not quite correct. A clear image ('ve seen one but can't find it at the moment) reveals that JFK appears to be 'pointing' at his throat:

 

I believe this indicates the bullet has severed his Ulnar nerve, causing some of his fingers (ring and little) to instantly clench shut but leaving his index finger unaffected and in a 'pointing' position.

[Andrew Mason]

At no point have I ever tried to argue anything from JFK's facial expressions.
The resolution of the Z-film is clearly not good enough.
Never have I even hinted at using this aspect of the Z-film to determine reactions.
On the contrary - it is you who keeps dragging in JFK's facial expressions as if can you discern something from them. Does this quote ring a bell:

"We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression."

I have pointed out the resolution is not good enough to reach any conclusions using facial reactions but apparently you can reach conclusions from it.
Really?

In order to prove that the reaction beginning at z226-227 is the first reaction to being shot at z223, you have to demonstrate that he was NOT reacting before then. By suggesting that the reaction began at z226  and not before, you are saying that he is not reacting in z225. So you must be confident about that.  I'm not.

But, of course, that is not all one must establish in order to prove that the bullet struck at z223. One must have evidence that the reaction beginning at z226-227 is the physical reaction that a person suffering the injury that JFK suffered would have to exhibit within 165ms to 220 ms. after being hit.  I have yet to see that kind of evidence.  That is what Lattimer was saying with his Thorburn argument.  You are not making the same kind of argument.

Can you explain this quote from one of your previous posts:

"No nerves were severed in JFK's neck and C6 is well below the bullet path. "

In one moment you're saying the bullet enters JFK's back above the C6 vertebra then your saying the bullet path is below C6 (below the brachial plexus.
It is clear you are willing to say whatever it takes to "win a point".

I made a correction in my subsequent post, which you must have read because you quoted it.  I said:
"Sorry. I should have said that the bullet path was below the C6 vertebra.  The bullet entered the upper back below the cervical (neck) part of the spine.  The autopsy report (Warren Report, Appendix 9, p. 6):

    "The other missile entered the right superior
    posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular
    and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right, side of the neck.
    This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical
    portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles
    of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the
    anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no
    bony structures in its path through the body.""

Constantly introducing  straw man arguments, twisting and misrepresenting what is being said.
Anyone can look over the last few pages and see the contribution I am making and your own contribution.
Your model has failed - passing under the oak tree at the time of your proposed first shot, the impossible ballistics of your proposed second shot and now this - a delay of over a second and a half between being shot and the multiple extreme, rapid and co-ordinated reactions of both JFK and JBC. The speed of these physical reactions is startling, measured in milliseconds. To suggest they come after one and a half seconds is preposterous. One and a half seconds may not seem a long time but it is an eternity when dealing with such rapid reactions.

First of all, I thought we were talking about JFK's reaction after he emerges from behind the sign and whether that was unequivocal evidence of a shot at z223.  What does the tree have to do with that? 

Second, there is only a delay of a second and a half if he is not reacting at all when we can't see him.  There is only a "co-ordinated reaction of both JFK and JBC if JFK is NOT REACTING when he is not visible prior to z225.

Third, your analysis assumes that JBC is reacting to being hit in the back on the first shot.  That is not what he said occurred.  He said that his reaction to the first shot was to turn around to see JFK.  That was what Nellie said as well. So did the Newmans who were standing right there 20 feet away.  That is what the police outriders said he did as well. That is what the evidence says was JBC's reaction to the first shot.  So even by your own theory that the first shot was at z223,  JBC's reaction beginning at z228 or so is to start turning around to see JFK.  And that is exactly what he proceeds to do at that point.

There is no sane proposal you can make that accounts for this time gap.
Weak attempts at muddying the water - maybe there was some kind of subtle reaction we can't see before z225 - cannot explain the sudden, co-ordinated rapidity of these physical reactions.

Again, they are co-ordinated only if JFK is not reacting before z226-227. 

The time gap for JBC's reaction is due to the fact, as he testified, that he was not hit in the back on the first shot so his reaction was due to the time required for his brain to process that he had just heard a rifle shot, that an assassination attempt was underway and feel concern for the President and then to start turning around to see him.

JFK's reaction was to having a bullet pass through his upper back and neck. Since it did not strike bone, the reaction could have been a fairly immediate but gradual reaction such as facial expression and hand movement followed by the more demonstrative reaction beginning at z226 when he realized he could not breathe.

[Andrew Mason]

The bullet passed between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, close to the spinal column.
This is confirmed by a fracture found in JFK's spine:
“There is an undisplaced fracture of the proximal portion of the right transverse process of T1 (or the region of the costovertebral junction)”

 Quote from the report of the HSCA consulting radiologist, G.M. McDonnel, MD, in: HSCA vol.7: 219.
[see https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0115a.htm]

An "undisplaced" fracture is one in which the bones remain aligned indicating a glancing blow by the bullet. This may have affected the trajectory of the bullet through JFK but that is not being considered at this moment. The fracture is of the right transverse process, in accordance with the entry of the bullet slightly to the right of the spine. Looking at this diagram again (obviously the diagram is of the left side of the body but the arguments apply due to the symmetry of the body):



A bullet passing between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, glancing off the transverse process of T1, would almost inevitably sever, or at least severely damage, the nerve marked T1 in the diagram, affecting in particular the Ulnar nerve which has its roots in the "T1" (and C8) nerve. The Ulnar nerve runs the length of the arm, entering the hand where it "flexes the ring and little fingers at the distal interphalangeal joint".
A bullet severing the Ulnar nerve may cause the hand to rapidly contract, however the Ulnar nerve only controls the flexion of the ring and little fingers.
I wish I could find a clearer image than the one below but there is a very strange aspect of JFK's hands in reaction to being shot. One might expect someone to 'clutch' at their throat if they were shot there but JFK doesn't do this. Instead he appears to clench his hands into fists and thrusts them under the area of his chin.
But even this is not quite correct. A clear image ('ve seen one but can't find it at the moment) reveals that JFK appears to be 'pointing' at his throat:

 

I believe this indicates the bullet has severed his Ulnar nerve, causing some of his fingers (ring and little) to instantly clench shut but leaving his index finger unaffected and in a 'pointing' position.

Very good.  That could explain his curled fingers of his right hand seen in z224 that could well have begun some time prior.

[Dan O'meara]

In order to prove that the reaction beginning at z226-227 is the first reaction to being shot at z223, you have to demonstrate that he was NOT reacting before then. By suggesting that the reaction began at z226  and not before, you are saying that he is not reacting in z225. So you must be confident about that.  I'm not.

But, of course, that is not all one must establish in order to prove that the bullet struck at z223. One must have evidence that the reaction beginning at z226-227 is the physical reaction that a person suffering the injury that JFK suffered would have to exhibit within 165ms to 220 ms. after being hit.  I have yet to see that kind of evidence.  That is what Lattimer was saying with his Thorburn argument.  You are not making the same kind of argument.
I made a correction in my subsequent post, which you must have read because you quoted it.  I said:
"Sorry. I should have said that the bullet path was below the C6 vertebra.  The bullet entered the upper back below the cervical (neck) part of the spine.  The autopsy report (Warren Report, Appendix 9, p. 6):

    "The other missile entered the right superior
    posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular
    and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right, side of the neck.
    This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical
    portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles
    of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the
    anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no
    bony structures in its path through the body.""
First of all, I thought we were talking about JFK's reaction after he emerges from behind the sign and whether that was unequivocal evidence of a shot at z223.  What does the tree have to do with that? 

Second, there is only a delay of a second and a half if he is not reacting at all when we can't see him.  There is only a "co-ordinated reaction of both JFK and JBC if JFK is NOT REACTING when he is not visible prior to z225.

Third, your analysis assumes that JBC is reacting to being hit in the back on the first shot.  That is not what he said occurred.  He said that his reaction to the first shot was to turn around to see JFK.  That was what Nellie said as well. So did the Newmans who were standing right there 20 feet away.  That is what the police outriders said he did as well. That is what the evidence says was JBC's reaction to the first shot.  So even by your own theory that the first shot was at z223,  JBC's reaction beginning at z228 or so is to start turning around to see JFK.  And that is exactly what he proceeds to do at that point.Again, they are co-ordinated only if JFK is not reacting before z226-227. 

The time gap for JBC's reaction is due to the fact, as he testified, that he was not hit in the back on the first shot so his reaction was due to the time required for his brain to process that he had just heard a rifle shot, that an assassination attempt was underway and feel concern for the President and then to start turning around to see him.

JFK's reaction was to having a bullet pass through his upper back and neck. Since it did not strike bone, the reaction could have been a fairly immediate but gradual reaction such as facial expression and hand movement followed by the more demonstrative reaction beginning at z226 when he realized he could not breathe.

The usual misrepresentation and "maybe this, maybe that" waffle.
There is one factual error that needs correcting:

"Since it did not strike bone, the reaction could have been a fairly immediate but gradual reaction such as facial expression and hand movement followed by the more demonstrative reaction beginning at z226 when he realized he could not breathe."

The bullet passing through JFK fractured his T1 vertebra ("an undisplaced fracture of the proximal portion of the right transverse process of T1"). As explained in a previous post the "undisplaced" nature of the fracture indicates a glancing blow.
I've no doubt you'll argue JFK will still have reacted "gradually" to having a vertebra fractured by a bullet ripping through his body.