The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

By "forward" I mean in the direction the car is moving. 

Really? So everybody is "sailing forward" because they're all moving in the same direction as the limo?
Brilliant stuff.
This is somehow supposed to be refuting the unequivocal evidence of no shot at z271?
You wrote for your first big point:

"What causes him to move forward from z272 - z280 before he falls back onto Nellie?"

Look at this clip Jerry posted. In it Nellie appears to move from one side of the metal strut to the other. It's not because she's moving, it's because the relative positions of everything in the limo is changing as the limo approaches Zapruder's position. This is not an optical illusion, it's a really basic understanding of how positions change with a changing perspective:



There is no "sailing forward" or "sailing backwards".
JBC crumples to his right after being shot, he straightens up slightly and falls back into Nellie's lap.
That's it.
How you imagine this is unusual or somehow contradicts the clear evidence that no shot occurs at 271 is in your mind only.
So let's move on to the next big point that needs explaining:

"2. why we see the hand movement between z271-272.  What causes the appearance of the hand and hat to change between z271 and z272?"

I made this Gif to highlight what nonsense you are talking. It comprises of z271 and z272:



Z271 is slightly blurred while z272 is much clearer.
This is what is causing "the appearance of the hand and hat to change".
In fact, there is no change as we can see. And remember, this is the moment the bullet is exploding out of JBC's chest and shattering his wrist. Clear evidence no such shot is taking place.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

The first shot occurs when JFK is approx 10 feet (ie approx 10 frames) before Z133.

The first shot hits the traffic signal or the pipe supporting the signal, then the lead bullet hits the road behind the limo, & two copper jacket fragments end up on the floor of the limo, one of the fragments glancing JFK's head along the way (ie JFK was hit by all three shots).

There are three possible scenarios for the trajectory of the first shot. 
(1) The bullet might have gone throo the signal back-plate (making a long hole), & then ricocheted off the side of the box-frame of the signal.
(2) Or the bullet might have hit the 2 inch pipe holding the traffic signal, &/or one of the two guy rods (each say ¾ inch solid steel), &/or the guy rod attachment collar (solid steel). 
(3) Or the bullet might have hit the pipe or rods or collar & then ricocheted off the signal box-frame.

The CIA drive-past footages showing Oswald's view from the 6th floor window suggest that scenarios (2) or (3) are the more likely, based on the position of the limo being a little south of the center of the center lane.  The guy rod attachment collar would then be on a sight line to JFK's neck.  Or if the JFK actor had been sitting on a slightly raised seat (as did JFK) then the attachment collar would of course be on a sight line to JFK's body a little below the neck. 

Scenario (1) would require the limo to be almost hard up to the southern edge of the center lane, ie the limo would need to be say 24 inches further south than in (2), ie 24 inches further left as viewed by Oswald.

[Dan O'meara]

The first shot occurs when JFK is approx 10 feet (ie approx 10 frames) before Z133.

The first shot hits the traffic signal or the pipe supporting the signal, then the lead bullet hits the road behind the limo, & two copper jacket fragments end up on the floor of the limo, one of the fragments glancing JFK's head along the way (ie JFK was hit by all three shots).

There are three possible scenarios for the trajectory of the first shot. 
(1) The bullet might have gone throo the signal back-plate (making a long hole), & then ricocheted off the side of the box-frame of the signal.
(2) Or the bullet might have hit the 2 inch pipe holding the traffic signal, &/or one of the two guy rods (each say ¾ inch solid steel), &/or the guy rod attachment collar (solid steel). 
(3) Or the bullet might have hit the pipe or rods or collar & then ricocheted off the signal box-frame.

The CIA drive-past footages showing Oswald's view from the 6th floor window suggest that scenarios (2) or (3) are the more likely, based on the position of the limo being a little south of the center of the center lane.  The guy rod attachment collar would then be on a sight line to JFK's neck.  Or if the JFK actor had been sitting on a slightly raised seat (as did JFK) then the attachment collar would of course be on a sight line to JFK's body a little below the neck. 

Scenario (1) would require the limo to be almost hard up to the southern edge of the center lane, ie the limo would need to be say 24 inches further south than in (2), ie 24 inches further left as viewed by Oswald.

Hi Marjan,

It's obvious you've not read through this thread before posting.
The first shot is described as being a very loud, explosive noise. In Altgens 6 we see three SS agents turned around looking over their right shoulders towards the TSBD. At least two of these agents describe reacting 'immediately' to this very loud noise.
In the Z-film we see that none of the agents making the turn we see in Altgens 6 and we see them until z207.
If the shot happens at z133 it means the agents have not reacted to the first shot for over 4 seconds.
How can you explain that?
Please go back to the beginning of this thread and read a few pages to get an idea of what's going on here.
Thank you.
(nice avatar by the way)

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Hi Marjan,

It's obvious you've not read through this thread before posting.
The first shot is described as being a very loud, explosive noise. In Altgens 6 we see three SS agents turned around looking over their right shoulders towards the TSBD. At least two of these agents describe reacting 'immediately' to this very loud noise.
In the Z-film we see that none of the agents making the turn we see in Altgens 6 and we see them until z207.
If the shot happens at z133 it means the agents have not reacted to the first shot for over 4 seconds.
How can you explain that?
Please go back to the beginning of this thread and read a few pages to get an idea of what's going on here.
Thank you.
(nice avatar by the way)

Yes i am aware of everything that u mentioned. I looked at all of pages 1 to 17 (on my computer) of this thread before i jumped to the last page (page 68 on my computer). Before finding this thread i had earlier this week spent hours going throo Zapruder frame by frame looking at the Agent's reactions etc, just like u guys are doing/did.  And I spent hours looking at Agent's & other statements. Every statement had contradictions & errors etc. No the Agents did not react immediately to the first shot. And i recall that one agent even mentions hearing firecrackers earlier on (firecrackers not firecracker).
In particular this week i (again) looked at the investigations into the possibility of the first shot hitting the signal or arm. I did a lot of looking a couple of years ago, & i dont know what made me revisit this stuff.

The most solid fact surrounding the JFK accidental homicide is that Hickey's fatal Z313 AR15 headshot, ie shot number 3, is the last shot. Oswald fired two shots, alltho there is of course a microscopic chance that he fired three, the third being at the same time as Hickey's first shot.

Oswald's second shot is the magic bullet.

The Tague injury is a mystery. The simplest answer is that a fragment of Hickey's shot hit Tague directly. I dont like the idea of a bullet ricocheting off the kerb near Tague.  If Oswald did indeed fire a wild third shot well over the top of the limo then that could of course explain that ricochet.  But there is not the slightest chance of Oswald or anyone else firing a shot after Z313. Hence despite the otherwise good work here in this thread all of u guys are barking up the wrong tree.
 
Does anyone here know which Zapruder frame Altgens 6 corresponds to?

[Andrew Mason]

Really? So everybody is "sailing forward" because they're all moving in the same direction as the limo?
Brilliant stuff.

If you are having trouble believing that the motion is not an illusion, I have measured it for you:

So let's move on to the next big point that needs explaining:

"2. why we see the hand movement between z271-272.  What causes the appearance of the hand and hat to change between z271 and z272?"

I made this Gif to highlight what nonsense you are talking. It comprises of z271 and z272:



Z271 is slightly blurred while z272 is much clearer.
This is what is causing "the appearance of the hand and hat to change".
In fact, there is no change as we can see. And remember, this is the moment the bullet is exploding out of JBC's chest and shattering his wrist. Clear evidence no such shot is taking place.

That is why I compared z268 to z271. Same change. It is subtle, but real. And it occurs between z271 and z272.


The sunvisor over Greer's head also moves between z271 and z271:


There are two marks on the windshield in z272 that do not appear in z271 but those may be the result of slightly more blur in z271.

[Jerry Organ]

If you are having trouble believing that the motion is not an illusion, I have measured it for you:

Exclusive to Discovery Plus: Porky Mason's "Smoke and Mirrors" show.



There is no doubt that Connally pivots in his seat towards Nellie and away from the camera. The angle of Connally's shirt collar, for example, becomes flatter as his torso pivots and reclines.

That is why I compared z268 to z271. Same change. It is subtle, but real. And it occurs between z271 and z272.

The major change I see is that a corner of the Stetson comes out of shade in the latter frame.

The sunvisor over Greer's head also moves between z271 and z271:


There are two marks on the windshield in z272 that do not appear in z271 but those may be the result of slightly more blur in z271.

The driver's side visor wobbles more forcefully prior to Z271. The seating of the visor may be worn or loose, and the visor is affected by wind flow.

Mason's lack of visual aptitude continues to make a laughing-stock of him.

[Dan O'meara]

Yes i am aware of everything that u mentioned. I looked at all of that before i saw this thread. I spent hours looking at witness statements. Every statement had contradictions & errors etc.
Before saying any more, i have a question, which Zapruder frame does Altgens 6 correspond to?

The general agreement is that it's z255

I agree that the witness statements are very contradictory so I try to rely on the Z-film and see if the witness statements agree with it.

[Charles Collins]

I got my first shot on 1/19, and the second shot today....   

Oh wait... never mind...