The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

I let a lot of Mason's posts go by. Mason and you engage much more than I do.

The father also went CT-Simple. He originally thought all three shots came from the Depository. Years of cajoling from Loons would make anyone doubt what they saw. Doctors at Parkland recall Lifton trying to get them to confirm something they never saw.

I watched a few interviews with Linda Willis and she's totally into conspiracy and shots from the front. She said her father in 1964 noticed a train was removed from the No.5 photo. I doubt if that allegation came out earlier than the 1990s. But Linda has evolved what-to-her is an authentic memory of that. Not unusual as the human mind is not a digital camera.

I thought the Willis's were a nice common-sense Texan family. But hasn't the whole state gotten more CT-simple over the decades?

Did anybody interview her before 1979? Probably her first interviews were not influenced by CTs.

In any event, too bad for Mason and you that Rosemary slows down and looks to her right seconds before your theories would like.

Adults--even SS agents--would be more inclined to dismiss the first shot as a backfire or firecracker. Rosemary was very young and the loud report would have been more novel to her.

In any event, too bad for Mason and you that Rosemary slows down and looks to her right seconds before your theories would like.

Why?
What does Rosemary Willis have to do with any theory I'm proposing?
It's you and Andrew who are cherry-picking from her various dubious statements in order to prop up your own defunct theories.
It's embarrassing to watch.

Adults--even SS agents--would be more inclined to dismiss the first shot as a backfire or firecracker. Rosemary was very young and the loud report would have been more novel to her.

This is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever posted.
If you'd bother to read some of the testimonies of the Secret Service agents in the Presidential back-up car you'd find some of them reacted immediately to the first shot. The reason they are not seen reacting in the Z-film is because the first shot isn't until z222/z223, at which time they are no longer in the film [see OP of this thread]
Your defense of little Rosemary's superior shot-recognition capabilities is beyond desperate.

[Andrew Mason]

In any event, too bad for Mason and you that Rosemary slows down and looks to her right seconds before your theories would like.

Why?
What does Rosemary Willis have to do with any theory I'm proposing?
It's you and Andrew who are cherry-picking from her various dubious statements in order to prop up your own defunct theories.
It's embarrassing to watch.

One does not have to rely on anything Rosemary said to use her sudden turn at z204-207 (which is the only time she is looking back at the TSBD) together with other evidence to see that the turn is in response to the first shot. That other evidence includes her father's statement that his z202 photo was taken an instant after the first shot, together with Jack Ready's statement that he turned immediately after hearing the first shot (he begins turning at z199). 

We both agree that the witnesses along Elm St. and those in the motorcade who relate their position at the time of the first shot, as well as Betzner and Croft, provide abundant evidence that the first shot was later than 186 and struck JFK.  We just disagree that there is evidence that he was hit as late as z222/223.

Adults--even SS agents--would be more inclined to dismiss the first shot as a backfire or firecracker. Rosemary was very young and the loud report would have been more novel to her.

This is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever posted.
If you'd bother to read some of the testimonies of the Secret Service agents in the Presidential back-up car you'd find some of them reacted immediately to the first shot. The reason they are not seen reacting in the Z-film is because the first shot isn't until z222/z223, at which time they are no longer in the film [see OP of this thread]
Your defense of little Rosemary's superior shot-recognition capabilities is beyond desperate.

Jerry likes to explain away the evidence he does not like.  As far as the Secret Service agents reacting, one can see Jack Ready remove his right hand from the front handhold at z199 and begin his turn around that is complete by z256 as seen in the Altgens photo. He said he turned immediately in response to the first shot.

[Andrew Mason]

We have seen film proof that both JFK and JBC are making extremely rapid movements just as they emerge from behind the Stemmons sign [Reply#1087, page 136].
Scientific proof had been presented that a detectable reflex reaction can occur within 2 Z-frames [Reply#1103]

What frame does JBC first show signs of reacting?
It seems clear, to me at least, that JBC is showing no signs of a physical reaction in z223, the picture below.
This appears to be the same position and posture he has before he passes behind the Stemmons sign.

He goes from smiling and waving at z193-z196 to a very different position and expression in z224, a time span of about 1.5 seconds:

I am not alone in seeing a material difference. It is inconceivable that if he was hit at z222/3 while smiling and waving that he could have assumed the position seen in z224 (particularly since his hands are already in the same place in z223).  The fact that it occurs very close to the time of the first shot leads to one of two conclusions:  1. he is reacting to being shot earlier 2. he was bracing himself for the shot before it hit.  I would suggest 1. is the more reasonable.

After this frame JBC's physical appearance and appearance begin to rapidly change:

In 1976 the Itek Corporation, specialists in photographic analysis, looked at the issue of exactly when Connally was showing a reaction to being hit. The following is their report.
By frame 232-234 there is strong evidence that the Governor is reacting to a significant effect on his body; or from other data, to a bullet wound. He placed the time of his reaction at 234. We studied the film in this area to determine if there were any striking changes in his physical appearance which could be interpreted as the onset of a reaction. Five photo analysts studied the original film from frames 222-240. They all concluded independently that somewhere between 223-226 there are signs of the beginning of a significant change in the governor's position and appearance. Some of their comments are paraphrased below.

First of all, Itek is interpreting just the film with the knowledge that Connally had been hit.  I do not see that they were aware that he said he and Nellie said he was hit in the back by a different shot than the one that struck JFK.  I do not see that Itek was aware that  the Connallys said that JBC reacted to the first shot, that did not hit him in the back, by turning around to check on JFK.  I also don't see where they have any expertise in identifying what a reaction to a chest bullet wound should look like let alone what this one should look like.

— As Connally first clears the obscuring sign on frame 221, his facial features are not discernable or distinct. Frames 222 and 223 show no unusual action and Connally's face and features remain frozen (normal). With frame 224, I observe a slight grimace, a minor body twist, a slight arching of the back and a rearward head motion. These reactions continue on frame 225 which includes a slight hiking up in the seat. By frame 226 Connally's head is turned forward which I judged to be a rapid reaction. Frame 227 yields no information due to the high amount of smear, but the following frames 228, 9 and 30 indicate a rapid reaction of the hand holding the Stetson which was flicked up and down quickly.
— I observe a rotation of the Governor's body from right to left beginning at frame 223. It isn't obvious that this is significant relative to the study objective, however I also observe what I would consider an involuntary and unusual motion of his right hand and arm at 225. Before 225, his hand is hidden from Zapruder's view, down below the edge of the door. At 225-226 it can be seen to travel rapidly upward until it is about level with his chin in 228. From 228-230 he flips his hat rapidly. At 229 it appears upside down in his hand with the thin edge of the brim extending toward Zapruder. By 230 the hat has flipped so that one can now see into it. This all takes place within less than 1/3 of a second so it would appear to be somewhat unusual.

— At frame #223 he is turned in the jump seat sitting well into the car. I noticed a facial expression changing between #223 and 224 to a grimacing look. His body has moved forward (toward the edge of the car) with his right shoulder twisting to his left and downward. Between frames #225 and 226 a rapid motion of the Governor's right hand begins, i.e. #225 - his hand inside of car, #226 - his Stetson hat appears over the edge of the car, #228 - the hat is up in front of his chin concealing it. At #229 and 230 he flips his hat from edge on to a view of looking at the inside of it.

Source: "John Kennedy Assassination Film Analysis" — Itek Corporation, May 2, 1976, pp. 36-39 Emphasis in original.
(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jbchit.htm)[/b]


The Zapruder film reveals when JFK begins his extreme and rapid reaction.
As he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign his LEFT ARM is down by his side. It is down by his side as he passes behind the Stemmons sign. The pic below shows his LEFT ARM down by his side in z193 [the last clear frame before he passes behind the Stemmons sign] alongside z224, the first clear frame of JFK as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.

From being down at his side, JFK's LEFT ARM suddenly rockets upwards. It is an incredibly rapid movement. The gif below shows the beginning of this incredibly rapid movement:

z224 shows the left arm down by the side. The left elbow is hidden below the edge of the door.
z225 shows a slight movement of the left arm but the left elbow is still below the edge of the door.
z226 shows the left arm is definitely beginning to rise as the left elbow comes above the edge of the door.

From being down by his side in z224, JFK's LEFT ARM shoots up to this extreme position in z232

This movement occurs in 0.44 seconds. It is an extreme and rapid reaction that begins at z225.
The Z-film proves both men had extreme and rapid reactions beginning at the same moment from a resting position.

I agree. It is just that, according to the evidence, JFK was reacting to being hit by the first shot and JBC was reacting to hearing it, recognizing it as a rifle shot (and realizing that an assassination was taking place) and turning to check on JFK.

[Andrew Mason]

Yeah Andrew. That's what's being said.

"Do you acknowledge the evidence that JBC makes this incredibly quick movement as soon as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign?"

The answer to this question is either Yes or No.
You have chosen No.
You've written it down Andrew.
It's on the record.

Your premise that you want me to accept by answering "yes" is that his reaction beginning at about z227-228 is "incredibly quick" to a stimulus at z222/223.  But that is not the evidence as to when the first shot occurred. The evidence is that it occurred somewhat earlier, some time shortly before z202 and after z186.  A reaction beginning at z228 to a stimulus (sound) that occurred about 2 seconds earlier is not incredibly quick but is understandable.  He first had to hear and process the sound, recognize it as a rifle shot, appreciate the significance of a rifle shot during a presidential motorcade, realize concern for the President's safety and begin a motor response of turning around to look at the President.

You point-blank refuse to accept evidence that conflicts with your dead theory.
Now I've pointed out your denial, you have started back-tracking.

I am reluctant to accept opinions that conflict with well corroborated bodies of evidence. You need evidence, not interpretations of what you think is causing the things seen in the zfilm.  The Connallys provide that evidence.

Both men are making incredibly rapid movements as they emerge from behind the Stemmons sign.
This cannot be denied. It is there for all to see in the Z-film.
The obvious candidate for causing the men to react so violently at exactly the same moment is a bullet passing through both of them [or that they were shot by different bullets at exactly the same moment].

But is it exactly the same moment and does this violent reaction begin after they have emerged from behind the sign?

It seems to me that JFK's reaction may have begun well before the sign and possibly as he is disappearing behind it (z198 and after).   This is what the photographic panel of the HSCA found.  That in itself does not persuade me but at least you can't say that I am the only person in the world who has considered this to be possible.  I can't tell from the film when he begins to react.  I base my conclusion about when it happened on other evidence (Phil Willis, Linda Willis, Jack Ready, Rosemary Willis' turn etc).

If he was reacting at z228 to a shot at z223 or z224 it would be incredible as in not believable.

Rather than just your biased opinion about this why don't you provide some evidence backing up this point.
You argue a physical reaction within 4/5 z-frames would be "incredible". What is your evidence for this?

You can't use a shot hitting JBC in the right armpit on the first shot to prove that his reaction is due to being hit in the right armpit on the first shot.  That is circular reasoning.  All the evidence says that JFK was hit by the first shot and that he is reacting to the effects of that injury in the z220s.  But the evidence is that JBC was hit in the back by the second shot, not the first, and he felt the impact at the time and immediately knew he was shot.  According to all the evidence there was only one shot at the point when they begin to react. The second was some time after the midpoint between the neck shot and the head shot.  So JBC's reaction at z228 - z250 is to something other than being hit in the back by a bullet.

Auditory Stimulus Response Times in Milliseconds (m/s)
The following figures come from a study by Brown et al, published in the British journal, Brain. The authors tested the latency period (time it takes to respond) of the auditory startle reflex in 12 healthy volunteers ranging in age from 18 to 80 years. While relaxing in a chair, the subjects were randomly treated about every 20 minutes to a tone burst of 124 decibels, the equivalent BANG! of a car backfire 20 feet away.

JBC did not hear a car backfire 20 feet away.  He heard a rifle shot 200 feet away.  His reaction is not necessarily a startle reaction. He said it was a deliberate reaction based on recognition of the significance of the sound - a rifle shot - during a presidential motorcade.

"...a look of horror on his face..."

 
Some of the things you come up with are priceless.

"...having curled hands..."

What on earth are you talking about?

His hands and fingers are different in z224 than in z193. In z193 the fingers of his right hand are stretched in a wave.  In z224 the fingers are not.  They appear to be, and must be, curled inward.  The left hand is in front with the fingers curled up in z193 but appears to be in a tighter fist closer to his body in z224.

[Sean Kneringer]

Jerry likes to explain away the evidence he does not like.  As far as the Secret Service agents reacting, one can see Jack Ready remove his right hand from the front handhold at z199 and begin his turn around that is complete by z256 as seen in the Altgens photo. He said he turned immediately in response to the first shot.

Not to mention Connally's dramatic head swing.

[Dan O'meara]

He goes from smiling and waving at z193-z196 to a very different position and expression in z224, a time span of about 1.5 seconds:

I am not alone in seeing a material difference. It is inconceivable that if he was hit at z222/3 while smiling and waving that he could have assumed the position seen in z224 (particularly since his hands are already in the same place in z223).  The fact that it occurs very close to the time of the first shot leads to one of two conclusions:  1. he is reacting to being shot earlier 2. he was bracing himself for the shot before it hit.  I would suggest 1. is the more reasonable.

You're having one of your 'senior moments', Andrew.
The post you were responding to was about John Connally, not John Kennedy. JBC, not JFK.

First of all, Itek is interpreting just the film with the knowledge that Connally had been hit.  I do not see that they were aware that he said he and Nellie said he was hit in the back by a different shot than the one that struck JFK.  I do not see that Itek was aware that  the Connallys said that JBC reacted to the first shot, that did not hit him in the back, by turning around to check on JFK.  I also don't see where they have any expertise in identifying what a reaction to a chest bullet wound should look like let alone what this one should look like.

The Itek Corporation are specialists in photographic analysis, no less than five photo analysts examined the Z-film and all, independently, came to the conclusion "that somewhere between 223-226 there are signs of the beginning of a significant change in the governor's position and appearance".
You'll excuse me if I lean on this analysis as opposed to your own 'expert' opinion.
The bottom line is that, as JBC emerges from behind the Stemmons sign he is. apparently calm and composed. There are no signs of distress. He is in the same position and posture as he passes behind the Stemmons sign:

 

The analysis by the Itek Corporation and my own analysis of the Z-film in this thread demonstrate, beyond doubt, it is after this moment JBC suddenly starts to make very extreme and very rapid movements.
THE Z-FILM SHOWS THE MOMENT THIS REACTION BEGINS.
Of course, in your own analysis, in the picture of JBC above, he has been shot over one and a half seconds before this z-frame, leading you to make the hilarious suggestion that Connally didn't notice being shot. And that's the pickle you're in. Because you've put all your eggs in the Phil Willis basket you have a first shot in the mid z190's - this leads to certain, ridiculous notions, which you have to pretend don't exist.

I agree. It is just that, according to the evidence, JFK was reacting to being hit by the first shot and JBC was reacting to hearing it, recognizing it as a rifle shot (and realizing that an assassination was taking place) and turning to check on JFK.

So, you agree with my analysis that the Z-film shows the moment JFK begins his radical, extreme and rapid reactions to being shot, beginning around z225.
And that JBC began his extreme and rapid movements at the same time.
Good for you.

You just think JBC is having this intense physical reaction and screaming "Oh, no, no, no" because he is upset that the day is going to be spoiled and not because he's been shot.

I think you can add that to the list of certain ridiculous things you have to accept.

[Dan O'meara]

Not to mention Connally's dramatic head swing.

The Connally Head Swing!
Was that a 1960's dance craze?
Please enlighten us - when was the Connally Head Swing?

[Andrew Mason]

You're having one of your 'senior moments', Andrew.
The post you were responding to was about John Connally, not John Kennedy. JBC, not JFK.

Yes, but you are basing JBC's reaction time on the same bullet striking him at z222/223. And that is based on JFK beginning his reaction at z226 and not before. I am simply pointing out that JFK is already reacting at z223 so the shot was earlier.

The Itek Corporation are specialists in photographic analysis, no less than five photo analysts examined the Z-film and all, independently, came to the conclusion "that somewhere between 223-226 there are signs of the beginning of a significant change in the governor's position and appearance".

Right. We can all see that. His reaction is developing as JBC realizes what he has just witnessed hearing.   JFK changes his reaction as well a few frames earlier.  He experiences the effects of not being able to breathe. That does not tell you when the bullet hit. A person breathes about once every 4 seconds. We know this wound interfered with his breathing.

You'll excuse me if I lean on this analysis as opposed to your own 'expert' opinion.
The bottom line is that, as JBC emerges from behind the Stemmons sign he is. apparently calm and composed. There are no signs of distress. He is in the same position and posture as he passes behind the Stemmons sign.

Unlike JFK who is not calm and composed in z224. There is a dramatic change in his expression and body.  JBC is still processing what he has just heard.

The analysis by the Itek Corporation and my own analysis of the Z-film in this thread demonstrate, beyond doubt, it is after this moment JBC suddenly starts to make very extreme and very rapid movements.
THE Z-FILM SHOWS THE MOMENT THIS REACTION BEGINS.

That is where JBC begins to show a reaction.  Mind you, he has already turned forward and may have been looking around.  But to suggest that he starts reacting at z228 to being hit in the back is where we strongly disagree.

I say that you cannot conclude that JFK has not started his reaction well before z224. You say he looks the same in z193 and z224. We'll have to simply say we don't agree.

Of course, in your own analysis, in the picture of JBC above, he has been shot over one and a half seconds before this z-frame, leading you to make the hilarious suggestion that Connally didn't notice being shot.

I have been saying forever that he was NOT shot in the back there. I am saying it is likely that the bullet through JFK struck his thigh. He said he never felt the thigh wound. It should not surprise you to learn that people often do not feel being shot.

And that's the pickle you're in. Because you've put all your eggs in the Phil Willis basket you have a first shot in the mid z190's - this leads to certain, ridiculous notions, which you have to pretend don't exist.

Such as JBC not feeling the thigh wound?  Not only would that not be unusual, that is exactly what the evidence says: he did not feel the thigh wound.

So, you agree with my analysis that the Z-film shows the moment JFK begins his radical, extreme and rapid reactions to being shot, beginning around z225.
And that JBC began his extreme and rapid movements at the same time.
Good for you.

You just think JBC is having this intense physical reaction and screaming "Oh, no, no, no" because he is upset that the day is going to be spoiled and not because he's been shot.

I think you can add that to the list of certain ridiculous things you have to accept.

That is what the evidence says. All the evidence says that JBC was hit in the back on the second shot. The second shot has not yet occurred when JBC starts his reaction at z228.  Nellie said he uttered "oh, no, no" before the second shot that she saw him recoil from.  JBC admitted that he said it not because he was hit but because of the tragedy that he realized was unfolding.