The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

I don’t recall any of them ever saying that.

You are right.  They just said that the shots came from the floor directly above them (the SN). One then needs to use a little bit of reasoning to conclude from this that this means the shots were fired from the same rifle. e.g.:

• Norman said that the shots were followed by a bolt action reload and shell hitting the floor.
• At no time were two people seen in the SN.
• The setup made it impossible for two shooters to be in the SN firing at the same time.
• Only one rifle was seen in the SN.
• Only one window in the SN was open.
• Unsurprisingly, no rifle other than the MC was ever found.

In other words, unless you are suggesting that there were two shooters and two rifles firing from the SN, which is absurd, the evidence from the three men is that all three shots were fired by the same shooter.

[Walt Cakebread]

You are right.  They just said that the shots came from the floor directly above them (the SN). One then needs to use a little bit of reasoning to conclude from this that this means the shots were fired from the same rifle. e.g.:

• Norman said that the shots were followed by a bolt action reload and shell hitting the floor.
• At no time were two people seen in the SN.
• The setup made it impossible for two shooters to be in the SN firing at the same time.
• Only one rifle was seen in the SN.
• Only one window in the SN was open.
• Unsurprisingly, no rifle other than the MC was ever found.

In other words, unless you are suggesting that there were two shooters and two rifles firing from the SN, which is absurd, the evidence from the three men is that all three shots were fired by the same shooter.

The fly in the ointment of this theory is:.....The Carcano couldn't possibly have been fired rapidly enough to make shots two and three, sound like they were less than three seconds apart.

[Dan O'meara]

Hi Dan....Thanks for the warm ( and insincere) welcome

Please post actual proof the the three shells ( originally TWO) that allegedly were fired from the SE corner window, were IN FACT fired from that site.

Seconds before the motorcade enters Dealey Plaza, Roberts and Fischer saw a man in the SN window [who was apparently not Oswald].
Euins and Brennan report a man pointing a rifle from the SN window towards the limo at the time of the shots.
Other witnesses saw what appeared to be a rifle sticking out of the same window.
At this time Hank Norman is directly beneath the SN.
Norman reports hearing the shots coming from directly above him and hears the shells hitting the floor.
The first officers at the SN report seeing three shells on the floor in the SN.
Other than an actual video of the shots being taken, I'm not sure what further evidence could be offered to verify that three shots were fired from the SN.
However, as I've already stated, Mooney and Alyea report that Fritz picked up the shells and may well have pocketed them.
Deputy Sheriff Jack Faulkner, in his initial report, states that when Fritz arrived on the sixth floor he was given the shells.
Fritz also pocketed the round ejected from the MC.
As such, it is impossible to verify that the shells that were allegedly discovered in the SN are the same shells photographed by Studebaker or that they were the shells involved in the three shots taken from the SN.

You state there were originally two shells allegedly fired from the SN window.
WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE FOR THAT?

[Dan O'meara]

Nor do I......but perhaps Mr O'meara will post proof that all three men reported that the three shots were all fired by the same shooter.   Or how those three man KNEW a "MAN" ( not a woman) had fired the shots

It was Andrew who posted the comment you're having a rant about so ask him about it.

[Zeon Mason]

If we rely on Harold Normans “boom clack clack” description of the sound of the rifle fired, then how can we ignore his spacing the 3 shots all fired in about a span of only 4 secs judging from his recorded interviews?


That’s just too quick to be the MC rifle imo

Also (imo) Norman seems to space the last #2 and # 3 “boom clack clacks” slightly closer together than #1 and #2.

My own personal and yet to be proved theory  is that a semi auto rifle was used by the SE window gunman and that it was Z224 that was the 1st shot that went thru both JFK and JBC

However, there still some problem finding a semi auto rifle that might make some after shot sound that could be mistaken as “clack clack”

The closest  semi rifle I’ve found that has a kind of “clack” noise that follows the firing of the shot is the M1941 Johnson 7.62 mm semi auto rifle.

The speculative sequence of shots for a semi auto rifle:

1st shot is fired at Z223-224 in a selected zone that the gunman having had at least 5 minutes at the SE window chose as the best range and clear of the tree.

This fits well with reaction time of 1.5 secs for SS agents turning their heads to the TSBD as photographed by Altgens no. 6 photo which is approx Z255.

The gunman did not see the desired head shot result from his 1st shot so took another 4.8 secs to aim. He was aided by Greer( accidentally) slowing the Limo down , and so he fired his last 2 shots in rapid succession as this was his last opportunity.

The 2nd shot was fired at Z313 followed by an 0.5 sec 3rd shot that went slightly high just missing JFKs head. This was due to the muzzle rise effect when firing 2 shots rapidly with a semi auto rifle.

Since James Tague said it was the 2nd OR the 3rd shot which he thought hit the curb nearby him, then it’s a plausible speculation it could be a  3rd shot that went slightly high that hit the curb with enough impact to chip the curb.

Where that bullet went is a mystery. Perhaps it’s still there somewhere near the Triple overpass buried in the ground or went into a storm drain.

The bullets fired from the semi auto rifle might have had a different composition of metal jacket and were pointed shaped. This might be the reason for metal trace elements found in the curb which do not match the MC 6.5 mm ball nosed copper jacketed bullet.

Also  the bullet found on the JFK stretcher by the man who found it initially, was described by him as appearing to be more pointed shaped  than the shape of the CE 399 bullet which he was later shown and asked to confirm( which he did not ) in  report that was made by FBI agent Odum, who 50 years later denied ever making such report.

[Dan O'meara]

If we rely on Harold Normans “boom clack clack” description of the sound of the rifle fired, then how can we ignore his spacing the 3 shots all fired in about a span of only 4 secs judging from his recorded interviews?


That’s just too quick to be the MC rifle imo

Also (imo) Norman seems to space the last #2 and # 3 “boom clack clacks” slightly closer together than #1 and #2.

My own personal and yet to be proved theory  is that a semi auto rifle was used by the SE window gunman and that it was Z224 that was the 1st shot that went thru both JFK and JBC

However, there still some problem finding a semi auto rifle that might make some after shot sound that could be mistaken as “clack clack”

The closest  semi rifle I’ve found that has a kind of “clack” noise that follows the firing of the shot is the M1941 Johnson 7.62 mm semi auto rifle.

The speculative sequence of shots for a semi auto rifle:

1st shot is fired at Z223-224 in a selected zone that the gunman having had at least 5 minutes at the SE window chose as the best range and clear of the tree.

This fits well with reaction time of 1.5 secs for SS agents turning their heads to the TSBD as photographed by Altgens no. 6 photo which is approx Z255.

The gunman did not see the desired head shot result from his 1st shot so took another 4.8 secs to aim. He was aided by Greer( accidentally) slowing the Limo down , and so he fired his last 2 shots in rapid succession as this was his last opportunity.

The 2nd shot was fired at Z313 followed by an 0.5 sec 3rd shot that went slightly high just missing JFKs head. This was due to the muzzle rise effect when firing 2 shots rapidly with a semi auto rifle.

Since James Tague said it was the 2nd OR the 3rd shot which he thought hit the curb nearby him, then it’s a plausible speculation it could be a  3rd shot that went slightly high that hit the curb with enough impact to chip the curb.

Where that bullet went is a mystery. Perhaps it’s still there somewhere near the Triple overpass buried in the ground or went into a storm drain.

The bullets fired from the semi auto rifle might have had a different composition of metal jacket and were pointed shaped. This might be the reason for metal trace elements found in the curb which do not match the MC 6.5 mm ball nosed copper jacketed bullet.

Also  the bullet found on the JFK stretcher by the man who found it initially, was described by him as appearing to be more pointed shaped  than the shape of the CE 399 bullet which he was later shown and asked to confirm( which he did not ) in  report that was made by FBI agent Odum, who 50 years later denied ever making such report.

Where that bullet went is a mystery. Perhaps it’s still there somewhere near the Triple overpass buried in the ground or went into a storm drain.

There is some evidence that a bullet or bullet fragment was found near a concrete manhole cover which I cover in Reply#1021 [page 128]
It is noteworthy in this case that all the ballistic evidence tying the bullets to the MC is handled in an extremely dubious manner. CE399 appears out of nowhere in the chain of custody for the pointed bullet found at Parkland, the bullet fragments in the limo are not obtained during an official crime scene search and the shells found on the 6th floor are handled by Fritz before the Crime Lab officers are on the scene.
Maybe it's just profound incompetence on behalf of the investigating officers but maybe it's something else.
The point is, if the ballistic evidence can't be competently tied to the MC, there's no need to consider it any more than a prop designed to incriminate Oswald.
It's also interesting that both eye-witnesses who saw the assassin in action failed to notice a scope on the rifle.

I find the last, hurried shot to be something of a mystery. The shooter must've surely seen JFK's head explode so I don't see the point of it. I can see a few of reasons why the third shot missed it's target - it was a rushed shot, Clint Hill suddenly arrived in the assassin's sights which might have caused him to pull it high and, at the moment of the head-shot, the limo suddenly accelerated which might have caused the shot to be pulled high. All speculation, of course, but it is something that needs understanding.

[John Iacoletti]

There was no scent of perfume or sound of high heels. 

Also, the boxes by the window weren't put away.

HA HA HA HA HA

Sexism is funny.

[John Iacoletti]

Norman said that the shots were followed by a bolt action reload and shell hitting the floor.

How would Norman know what was hitting the floor?

At no time were two people seen in the SN.

False.  But the three men in question didn't see anything in the SN, so how would they know this even if it was true?

The setup made it impossible for two shooters to be in the SN firing at the same time.
Only one rifle was seen in the SN.
Only one window in the SN was open.
Unsurprisingly, no rifle other than the MC was ever found.

But how does any of that tell the three men (or anybody else), that ALL THE SHOTS came from that location?