On The Trail Of Delusion

[Richard Smith]

You're wrong. Oswald was a private individual and then became an historical figure later.   

Sorry Richard, my point is not silly. You clearly stated that Oswald "never had a sense of humor in his life". The only way you would know that for a fact is If you knew the man personally, but you never did. In order to evade my question, you bring up Trump for some reason when he was never the subject of this topic.     

I'll ask you again: How would you know if Oswald "never had a sense of humor" unless you knew the man personally? 

That was a silly claim for you to make.

Rick desperately wants to make this personal because I'm the only one here who ever bothers to respond to any of his thousands of long, endless anti-Trump posts.   Others here are apparently smart enough to completely ignore him.  But let's make this one about the subject actually under discussion here.  Did Oswald write "Hunter of Fascists. HA HA HA" on the BY photo or not?  That's the only relevant point.  I don't think he did.  I made a seemingly reasonable and incontrovertible point that Oswald wouldn't use self-deprecating humor to mock himself in this photo.  To the contrary, in this situation he was deadly serious about portraying himself as some type of revolutionary figure in the BY photos willing to commit violence for the cause (thus the display of weapons and Commie literature).  Even most CTers appear to accept this was the purpose of the BY photos since they argue that they were intended by their fantasy conspirators to portray Oswald in a sinister light to implicate him in the assassination (i.e. they depict an unhinged and potentially violent person).  But the sentiment "Hunter of Fascists. HA HA HA" is a remark that indicates mocking amusement at the subject depicted.   Is Oswald the type of person who displayed this type of humor or any humor?  No. 

Instead, the humorous sentiment being expressed is much more consistent with the viewpoint of Marina who found Oswald's nutty behavior to be amusing.  A source of humor.  But we are taken down the rabbit hole as to whether is it is possible to have a "hidden" sense of humor in which it is suggested that Oswald is a "private" individual and, therefore, no one can prove that he had no sense of humor.  Classic rabbit hole deflection.  Of course, despite the thousands of books and millions of pages written on the subject of Oswald and his background - many by people who knew him in his "private" life including his own wife - there is nary an example provided of Oswald displaying a sense of humor.  Much less being self-deprecating.  Rick and Martin have certainly not bothered to provide any example.  Martin bizarrely interjected that Oswald "liked kids." Instead they ask me to disprove this to their satisfaction despite the extensive historical record being devoid of any such examples.  Ironically, Martin even agrees with me on the relevant point that Oswald did not write "Hunter of Fascists" on this photo.  But this is the rabbit hole direction he wants to debate endlessly.  Rick refuses to even say what he is suggesting about the photo.  Is he arguing that Oswald was secretly a barrel of laughs and he was mocking himself by writing this sentiment on the photo?  Why is he taking issue with this?  We will apparently never know.  Instead we are down the rabbit hole about what constitutes a "private" individual and whether it is possible that Oswald has some hidden Richard Pryor alter ego never mentioned by anyone who ever encountered him because Rick apparently knew someone like that.  Astounding.  Endless posts are made on this subject while ignoring the relevant point.  Who wrote "Hunter of Fascists" on the photo?  Does that sound like something Oswald would have done?  No.  Does it sound like a sentiment Marina would express?  Yes.  Does it sound like a sentiment DeM himself might have expressed?  Maybe.  The humorous and mocking nature of the sentiment provides some insight into who wrote it.  That is the full and complete implication of my original point which is obvious and does not require us to go down some bizarre rabbit hole.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Rick desperately wants to make this personal because I'm the only one here who ever bothers to respond to any of his thousands of long, endless anti-Trump posts.   Others here are apparently smart enough to completely ignore him.  But let's make this one about the subject actually under discussion here.  Did Oswald write "Hunter of Fascists. HA HA HA" on the BY photo or not?  That's the only relevant point.  I don't think he did.  I made a seemingly reasonable and incontrovertible point that Oswald wouldn't use self-deprecating humor to mock himself in this photo.  To the contrary, in this situation he was deadly serious about portraying himself as some type of revolutionary figure in the BY photos willing to commit violence for the cause (thus the display of weapons and Commie literature).  Even most CTers appear to accept this was the purpose of the BY photos since they argue that they were intended by their fantasy conspirators to portray Oswald in a sinister light to implicate him in the assassination (i.e. they depict an unhinged and potentially violent person).  But the sentiment "Hunter of Fascists. HA HA HA" is a remark that indicates mocking amusement at the subject depicted.   Is Oswald the type of person who displayed this type of humor or any humor?  No. 

Instead, the humorous sentiment being expressed is much more consistent with the viewpoint of Marina who found Oswald's nutty behavior to be amusing.  A source of humor.  But we are taken down the rabbit hole as to whether is it is possible to have a "hidden" sense of humor in which it is suggested that Oswald is a "private" individual and, therefore, no one can prove that he had no sense of humor.  Classic rabbit hole deflection.  Of course, despite the thousands of books and millions of pages written on the subject of Oswald and his background - many by people who knew him in his "private" life including his own wife - there is nary an example provided of Oswald displaying a sense of humor.  Much less being self-deprecating.  Rick and Martin have certainly not bothered to provide any example.  Martin bizarrely interjected that Oswald "liked kids." Instead they ask me to disprove this to their satisfaction despite the extensive historical record being devoid of any such examples.  Ironically, Martin even agrees with me on the relevant point that Oswald did not write "Hunter of Fascists" on this photo.  But this is the rabbit hole direction he wants to debate endlessly.  Rick refuses to even say what he is suggesting about the photo.  Is he arguing that Oswald was secretly a barrel of laughs and he was mocking himself by writing this sentiment on the photo?  Why is he taking issue with this?  We will apparently never know.  Instead we are down the rabbit hole about what constitutes a "private" individual and whether it is possible that Oswald has some hidden Richard Pryor alter ego never mentioned by anyone who ever encountered him because Rick apparently knew someone like that.  Astounding.  Endless posts are made on this subject while ignoring the relevant point.  Who wrote "Hunter of Fascists" on the photo?  Does that sound like something Oswald would have done?  No.  Does it sound like a sentiment Marina would express?  Yes.  Does it sound like a sentiment DeM himself might have expressed?  Maybe.  The humorous and mocking nature of the sentiment provides some insight into who wrote it.  That is the full and complete implication of my original point which is obvious and does not require us to go down some bizarre rabbit hole.

If you read Priscilla Johnson McMillan's "Marina and Lee", which I think the most definitive work on Lee's personality at that time, you can see examples of a more light-hearted Oswald when in the USSR. There are stories in the book where he and Marina would laugh about matters.

However, the book also shows a darker and angrier Oswald when he returned to the US. His beatings, Marina said, got more intense and harsher (he would use a closed fist while in the USSR it was just a slap). He was failing miserably in the US; he couldn't hold a decent job, his life was spinning out of control. Not a lot of things to joke about. Most important, there's nothing at all in the book or elsewhere that I've seen where Oswald joked about politics or his political "personality." On that issue he was quite serious. If others have read about this they can correct me.

So let's say both sides are right: He did show a sense of humor on occasion (less so when he returned from Minsk) but it was not, as I see it, about politics. He took discussions about that very very seriously.

[Richard Smith]

More likely Rog would be ducking , dodging or deflecting into mom's basement

That proved to be a Nostradamus-like prediction.  I haven't seen so much dodging and running since those OJ Simpson Hertz commercials. 

[Martin Weidmann]

Rick desperately wants to make this personal because I'm the only one here who ever bothers to respond to any of his thousands of long, endless anti-Trump posts.   Others here are apparently smart enough to completely ignore him.  But let's make this one about the subject actually under discussion here.  Did Oswald write "Hunter of Fascists. HA HA HA" on the BY photo or not?  That's the only relevant point.  I don't think he did.  I made a seemingly reasonable and incontrovertible point that Oswald wouldn't use self-deprecating humor to mock himself in this photo.  To the contrary, in this situation he was deadly serious about portraying himself as some type of revolutionary figure in the BY photos willing to commit violence for the cause (thus the display of weapons and Commie literature).  Even most CTers appear to accept this was the purpose of the BY photos since they argue that they were intended by their fantasy conspirators to portray Oswald in a sinister light to implicate him in the assassination (i.e. they depict an unhinged and potentially violent person).  But the sentiment "Hunter of Fascists. HA HA HA" is a remark that indicates mocking amusement at the subject depicted.   Is Oswald the type of person who displayed this type of humor or any humor?  No. 

Instead, the humorous sentiment being expressed is much more consistent with the viewpoint of Marina who found Oswald's nutty behavior to be amusing.  A source of humor.  But we are taken down the rabbit hole as to whether is it is possible to have a "hidden" sense of humor in which it is suggested that Oswald is a "private" individual and, therefore, no one can prove that he had no sense of humor.  Classic rabbit hole deflection.  Of course, despite the thousands of books and millions of pages written on the subject of Oswald and his background - many by people who knew him in his "private" life including his own wife - there is nary an example provided of Oswald displaying a sense of humor.  Much less being self-deprecating.  Rick and Martin have certainly not bothered to provide any example.  Martin bizarrely interjected that Oswald "liked kids." Instead they ask me to disprove this to their satisfaction despite the extensive historical record being devoid of any such examples.  Ironically, Martin even agrees with me on the relevant point that Oswald did not write "Hunter of Fascists" on this photo.  But this is the rabbit hole direction he wants to debate endlessly.  Rick refuses to even say what he is suggesting about the photo.  Is he arguing that Oswald was secretly a barrel of laughs and he was mocking himself by writing this sentiment on the photo?  Why is he taking issue with this?  We will apparently never know.  Instead we are down the rabbit hole about what constitutes a "private" individual and whether it is possible that Oswald has some hidden Richard Pryor alter ego never mentioned by anyone who ever encountered him because Rick apparently knew someone like that.  Astounding.  Endless posts are made on this subject while ignoring the relevant point.  Who wrote "Hunter of Fascists" on the photo?  Does that sound like something Oswald would have done?  No.  Does it sound like a sentiment Marina would express?  Yes.  Does it sound like a sentiment DeM himself might have expressed?  Maybe.  The humorous and mocking nature of the sentiment provides some insight into who wrote it.  That is the full and complete implication of my original point which is obvious and does not require us to go down some bizarre rabbit hole.

Who wrote "Hunter of Fascists" on the photo?  Does that sound like something Oswald would have done?  No.  Does it sound like a sentiment Marina would express?  Yes.  Does it sound like a sentiment DeM himself might have expressed?  Maybe.  The humorous and mocking nature of the sentiment provides some insight into who wrote it.

Great, so now we have established that who ever wrote the text did not hold Oswald in any high regard. If Richard's constant suggestion that Marina wrote it is wrong, and (and it is beyond doubt that she didn't), that brings us automatically to an unknown third party who somehow knew Oswald and must have been involved in the making of the BY photos. This in turn is most relevant as it makes the taking of the picture more than just the family affair the WC wants us to believe it was. And that was exactly the point I have been making from the beginning!

[Richard Smith]

Who wrote "Hunter of Fascists" on the photo?  Does that sound like something Oswald would have done?  No.  Does it sound like a sentiment Marina would express?  Yes.  Does it sound like a sentiment DeM himself might have expressed?  Maybe.  The humorous and mocking nature of the sentiment provides some insight into who wrote it.

Great, so now we have established that who ever wrote the text did not hold Oswald in any high regard. Despite "Richard's" constant suggestion that Marina wrote it - when it is beyond doubt that she didn't (otherwise we would have known it by now) - brings us automatically to an unknown third party who somehow knew Oswald and must have been involved in the making of the BY photos. This in turn is most relevant as it makes the taking of the picture more than just the family affair the WC wants us to believe it was. And that was exactly the point I have been making from the beginning!

I'm not aware of anyone who ever claimed that the person who wrote this did so to compliment Oswald.  Not sure where you came up with that.  It always has been interpreted as a humorous derogatory or satirical remark directed at Oswald.  That was my entire point for why it is unlikely Oswald who wrote it.  How does that prove it wasn't Marina - much less prove it "beyond doubt"?  If anything, the sentiment is entirely consistent with her view of the situation.  That is particularly rich coming from someone who otherwise applies an impossible standard of proof to any evidence linking Oswald to the crime.  But here for some unspecified reason we can suddenly rule out Marina "beyond doubt."  LOL. 

A notation written on the back of the photo in no way suggests that the person who wrote it "must have been involved in the making of the BY photos."  It simply means that they had access to the photo at some point in time after it was taken.  Whether Marina or DeM wrote this notation is mostly a matter of historical curiosity at this point.  If you want to believe we can't know with certainty who wrote it, then knock yourself out.  The list of such people who had access to the photo and could write in Russian is very limited.  Any uncertainty as to whether it was Marina or DeM adds nothing to the case for a conspiracy or whatever you are trying to suggest here. 

[Martin Weidmann]

I'm not aware of anyone who ever claimed that the person who wrote this did so to compliment Oswald.  Not sure where you came up with that.  It always has been interpreted as a humorous derogatory or satirical remark directed at Oswald.  That was my entire point for why it is unlikely Oswald who wrote it.  How does that prove it wasn't Marina - much less prove it "beyond doubt"?  If anything, the sentiment is entirely consistent with her view of the situation.  That is particularly rich coming from someone who otherwise applies an impossible standard of proof to any evidence linking Oswald to the crime.  But here for some unspecified reason we can suddenly rule out Marina "beyond doubt."  LOL. 

A notation written on the back of the photo in no way suggests that the person who wrote it "must have been involved in the making of the BY photos."  It simply means that they had access to the photo at some point in time after it was taken.  Whether Marina or DeM wrote this notation is mostly a matter of historical curiosity at this point.  If you want to believe we can't know with certainty who wrote it, then knock yourself out.  The list of such people who had access to the photo and could write in Russian is very limited.  Any uncertainty as to whether it was Marina or DeM adds nothing to the case for a conspiracy or whatever you are trying to suggest here.

I'm not aware of anyone who ever claimed that the person who wrote this did so to compliment Oswald.  Not sure where you came up with that.

And I am not sure where you came up with this, as I never said that anybody ever made such a claim.

How does that prove it wasn't Marina - much less prove it "beyond doubt"?

Well, let's see. How can I dumb this down so that you too can understand it? Hmmmm

Let's try this; (1) Marina has never confirmed she wrote that text, (2) Marina's handwriting was available, so an comparison would have been easily made and (3) no investigation has ever claimed or shown that Marina wrote that text. Although it doesn't prove a negative (which is what you are asking for), it's nevertheless pretty much beyond doubt for a reasonable person to conclude that she did not write that text, because we would have known by now if she had written it. Get it now?....

And just in case you still don't get it, why don't we try this, from Marina's HSCA deposition on September 20, 1977

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm  (thanks to Jerry Freeman for the link  )

Q. Did you ever write anything on the back of either the original or a copy of one of these photographs?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever write a note or anything to George de Mohrenschildt on the back of the original or a copy?
A. No.
Q. Are you sure of that?
A. Yes.

That is particularly rich coming from someone who otherwise applies an impossible standard of proof to any evidence linking Oswald to the crime.

I've asked you this before and never got an answer, but I'll give it another try; define that so-called "impossible standard of proof"? It's a serious question because I have no idea what you are rambling on about.

But here for some unspecified reason we can suddenly rule out Marina "beyond doubt."  LOL. 

Just like we can rule out beyond doubt that Ruth Paine, Michael Paine, George DeMohrenschildt wrote that text. In fact it rules out beyond doubt anybody who the investigators had a handwriting sample from.

A notation written on the back of the photo in no way suggests that the person who wrote it "must have been involved in the making of the BY photos."  It simply means that they had access to the photo at some point in time after it was taken.

Semantics. Handling such a photo within days of it being taken means involvement even if that person wasn't present when the actual photo was taken. Making the BY photos was either a family affair between Oswald and Marina or others were involved. Those are the two options.

Whether Marina or DeM wrote this notation is mostly a matter of historical curiosity at this point.

At this point in time, that may be true, but during the HSCA investigation it would be a lot more significant. And why stop with Marina or George DeMohrenschildt. Why not consider, for example, Ruth Paine, who also had very little regard for Oswald?

The list of such people who had access to the photo and could write in Russian is very limited.

Really? Have you ever made such a list? And if not, how do you know who else had access to the photo?

Any uncertainty as to whether it was Marina or DeM adds nothing to the case for a conspiracy

Which is exactly why you want to limit the list to those two individuals..... God forbid there was somebody else involved, right,"Richard", the contrarian with an impossible standard of proof?

[Jerry Freeman]

If the government counsel actually thought that Marina wrote on the picture they would have pressed her on it.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

Q. I will show you those two photographs which are marked JFK exhibit No. 1 and exhibit No. 2, do you recognize those two photographs?
A. I sure do. I have seen them many times.
Q. What are they?
A. That is the pictures that I took.
Q. What do you recall as far as the circumstances leaking up to you taking these pictures and when you actually took them and what happened?
A. I do believe it was a weekend and he asked me to take a picture of him and I refused because I don't know how to take pictures. That is the only pictures I ever took in my whole life. So we argued over it and I thought the pose, or whatever he was wearing was just horrible, but he insisted that I just click, just push the button and I believe I did it twice and that was it. I do not know whether he developed them, at home or somewhere else, I have no idea.
Q. What is he wearing in those photographs and what is he holding?
A. What was a surprise for me was for him to hold his rifle and a pamphlet, some kind of newspaper. It puzzled me, it was a ridiculous way to pose for a picture.
Q. Does he also have a pistol in his arm?
A. I don't see that, it looks like it-yes, I see now.
Q. And you recall testifying about these same two photographs when you testified to the Warren Commission?
A. Yes; I remember them asking if I ever took the pictures and I had completely forgotten because it was only once in my life and I didn't know who to take pictures. Yes, when they showed me that, yes, I did take the pictures.

Marina had completely forgotten that she had taken the only pictures... that she had ever taken in her life? 

Q. The camera you took them on, was that Lee Harvey Oswald's camera?
A. I believe so.
Q. Was it the same one he had in Russia or a different one, do you know?
A. I don't know, but I do believe it could be the same.
Q. What did he tell you to do with the camera as far as taking the pictures?
A. He just told me which button to push and I did.
Q. Did you hold it up to your eye and look through the viewer to take the picture?
A. Yes.

A lie.

Q. And after you took the picture what did you do after you took the first picture?
A. I went into the house and did things I had to attend to.
Q. How many pictures did you take?
A. I think I took two.
Q. When you took the first picture you held it up to your eye?
A. Yes; that is what I recall.
Q. What did you do next?
A. I believe he did something with it and told me to push it again.
Q. The first time you pushed it down to take the picture?
A. Yes.
Q. And the first time, what happened before you took the second picture?
A. He changed his pose.
Q. What I am getting at is, did you give the camera to him so he would move the film forward or did you do that?
A. He did that.
Q. So you took the picture and handed the camera to him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he do?
A. He said, "Once again," and I did it again.
Q. So he have you back the camera?
A. For the second time; yes.
Q. Did he put the rifle down?
A. You see, that is the way I remember it.
Q. Did he put the rifle down on the ground between--
A. I don't remember. I was so annoyed with all this procedure so the sooner I could get through, the better, so I don't recollect.

Marina did not like having to lie.

Q. But you do remember taking the picture?
A. Yes; I am the one who took the picture and the weather was right.
Q. What did you say?
A. Somebody speculated the picture couldn't be taken; the weather was wrong.
Q. I am not interested in what people speculated.

I am. This means that there was someone else that would have been a witness to this backyard photo session...that apparently didn't exist. 

A. There is nobody to blame for it but me.
Q. When you took the first picture and you gave him the camera, did you walk over to him and give him the camera or did he walk over to you?
A. I don't remember.

[Rick Plant]

Rick desperately wants to make this personal because I'm the only one here who ever bothers to respond to any of his thousands of long, endless anti-Trump posts.  Others here are apparently smart enough to completely ignore him. But let's make this one about the subject actually under discussion here.  Did Oswald write "Hunter of Fascists. HA HA HA" on the BY photo or not?  That's the only relevant point.  I don't think he did.  I made a seemingly reasonable and incontrovertible point that Oswald wouldn't use self-deprecating humor to mock himself in this photo.  To the contrary, in this situation he was deadly serious about portraying himself as some type of revolutionary figure in the BY photos willing to commit violence for the cause (thus the display of weapons and Commie literature).  Even most CTers appear to accept this was the purpose of the BY photos since they argue that they were intended by their fantasy conspirators to portray Oswald in a sinister light to implicate him in the assassination (i.e. they depict an unhinged and potentially violent person).  But the sentiment "Hunter of Fascists. HA HA HA" is a remark that indicates mocking amusement at the subject depicted.   Is Oswald the type of person who displayed this type of humor or any humor?  No. 

Instead, the humorous sentiment being expressed is much more consistent with the viewpoint of Marina who found Oswald's nutty behavior to be amusing.  A source of humor.  But we are taken down the rabbit hole as to whether is it is possible to have a "hidden" sense of humor in which it is suggested that Oswald is a "private" individual and, therefore, no one can prove that he had no sense of humor.  Classic rabbit hole deflection.  Of course, despite the thousands of books and millions of pages written on the subject of Oswald and his background - many by people who knew him in his "private" life including his own wife - there is nary an example provided of Oswald displaying a sense of humor.  Much less being self-deprecating.  Rick and Martin have certainly not bothered to provide any example.  Martin bizarrely interjected that Oswald "liked kids." Instead they ask me to disprove this to their satisfaction despite the extensive historical record being devoid of any such examples.  Ironically, Martin even agrees with me on the relevant point that Oswald did not write "Hunter of Fascists" on this photo.  But this is the rabbit hole direction he wants to debate endlessly.  Rick refuses to even say what he is suggesting about the photo.  Is he arguing that Oswald was secretly a barrel of laughs and he was mocking himself by writing this sentiment on the photo?  Why is he taking issue with this?  We will apparently never know.  Instead we are down the rabbit hole about what constitutes a "private" individual and whether it is possible that Oswald has some hidden Richard Pryor alter ego never mentioned by anyone who ever encountered him because Rick apparently knew someone like that.  Astounding.  Endless posts are made on this subject while ignoring the relevant point.  Who wrote "Hunter of Fascists" on the photo?  Does that sound like something Oswald would have done?  No.  Does it sound like a sentiment Marina would express?  Yes.  Does it sound like a sentiment DeM himself might have expressed?  Maybe.  The humorous and mocking nature of the sentiment provides some insight into who wrote it.  That is the full and complete implication of my original point which is obvious and does not require us to go down some bizarre rabbit hole.

How hard is it to answer a simple question?

So, I ask Richard Smith a simple question and he writes a super long winded post still evading what I asked him.

Richard Smith claimed that Oswald "never had a sense of humor".

I simply asked Richard how would he know that since he never met the man.

He still refuses to answer that question and can only respond with personal insults and false accusations as usual. 

I still don't see anybody agreeing with him.

Question for Richard Smith: How do you know Lee Harvey Oswald never had a sense of humor when you never knew the man personally?