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Author Topic: On The Trail Of Delusion  (Read 78854 times)

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did Kerry Thornley Lie about Oswald's Height?
« Reply #808 on: January 08, 2022, 07:07:15 PM »
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Did Kerry Thornley Lie about Oswald's Height?
Who cares what Thornley said?
Questions should be...Did Oswald lie about his height? Also, did the Marine medical examiner lie about Oswald's height? Additionally, did the passport office not notice a shorter than 5' 11" guy submit an application?... and so on.

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Re: Did Kerry Thornley Lie about Oswald's Height?
« Reply #808 on: January 08, 2022, 07:07:15 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Gaeton Fonzi Channels Jim Garrison
« Reply #809 on: January 08, 2022, 07:21:19 PM »
Right. It's been nearly 60 years and we've had multiple investigations by the government, by the media, and by independent reporters/journalists and they've found nothing indicating a conspiracy. Yes, nothing for me.

I go to conspiracy sites, read conspiracy books - over these years, I've read literally thousands of books and articles and pieces from conspiracists (so much for supposedly living in an echo chamber) - and see a dozen-and-one, at least, different explanations as how this was pulled off. All kinds of different plans and people, some over here and others over there. It's been over half a century and the explanations become more complex and convoluted and contradictory. Every year a new explanation is given. This new person and this new conspiracy. Instead of the explanation becoming more coherent, the narrative cleaner, the explanations are move convoluted now than ever.

Since you know what happened, who shot JFK? Who ordered the murder? Where's the evidence for this order? Who carried it out? How did they plan it in advance - and get everyone to go along?

Go ahead, give us (well me) this evidence.

I'm with you there, Steve. Over the years, I have evenhandedly evaluated many of the "visual" conspiracy claims. For example, there was the claim that Umbrella Man's umbrella had eight ribs, which ruled against the HSCA's witness who produced an umbrella with ten ribs. But when examined in the Willis photo and Zapruder frames, the umbrella did have ten ribs. I suspect this was one of the little findings that jarred Gary Mack and made him less suspicible to conspiracy claims.

The same with the claims that the autopsy photos showed an entry point at T3 or lower.



3D analysis of the back wound autopsy photo shows the entry wound was above the exit wound at the throat. This is the first-attempt analysis. Nothing fancy. Let the chips fall. Yes, on this particular model, the missile path clipped the C7 vertebra, but allowing for normal human variation, the missile path could just as easily have not struck bone.

The point is the critics never applied science to the problem. They're going with gross observations that fool people--including those with a sizeable platform like Oliver Stone--who can't do the science.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Gaeton Fonzi Channels Jim Garrison
« Reply #810 on: January 08, 2022, 08:40:21 PM »
I'm with you there, Steve. Over the years, I have evenhandedly evaluated many of the "visual" conspiracy claims. For example, there was the claim that Umbrella Man's umbrella had eight ribs, which ruled against the HSCA's witness who produced an umbrella with ten ribs. But when examined in the Willis photo and Zapruder frames, the umbrella did have ten ribs. I suspect this was one of the little findings that jarred Gary Mack and made him less suspicible to conspiracy claims.

The same with the claims that the autopsy photos showed an entry point at T3 or lower.



3D analysis of the back wound autopsy photo shows the entry wound was above the exit wound at the throat. This is the first-attempt analysis. Nothing fancy. Let the chips fall. Yes, on this particular model, the missile path clipped the C7 vertebra, but allowing for normal human variation, the missile path could just as easily have not struck bone.

The point is the critics never applied science to the problem. They're going with gross observations that fool people--including those with a sizeable platform like Oliver Stone--who can't do the science.
Look, the government lied about some of this. We know it, we admit it. The CIA didn't want to reveal their operations in MC or their really awful violations of law in mail opening et cetera. And especially about the covert attacks on Cuba and assassination plots against Castro. I think RFK wanted Dulles on the WC to help keep that quiet. There is no defense for this. Hoover was just an awful person. The Cold War enticed them to do stupid and immoral things.

The conspiracy by the government was one of failure, one of people in power covering up for their failures and for their abuses of power and, in some case, legitimate concerns. That was why they withheld information and lied.

The fact that the CIA or FBI did bad things doesn't mean they did THIS bad thing, i.e., killing JFK. Frankly, I have no idea how you could plan something like this out. Nobody said no? Nobody would expose this? JFK was admired by some people; and even those who hated him wouldn't all go along with this type of fascist coup.

The claim is that the WC covered it up. Well, Norman Redlich was the lead author of that report and the main person involved in the investigation. Redlich was a man of the political left; he attacked Joe McCarthy, he didn't care for Hoover, he was a noted civil libertarian. He's simply not going to go along with this quasi-fascist coup. He's not. Neither, in my view, were those other men, some of whom were top defense lawyers and civil libertarians. These were not gangsters or crooks; these were men of ethics.

The most obvious explanation: an angry, disaffected man who disliked the world he lived in killed the man who personified that world. He got lucky, chance helped him out. Ironically, a man who had little luck in life won the lottery of history. People don't want to accept that. So here we are some almost 60 years later.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 09:15:39 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

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Re: Gaeton Fonzi Channels Jim Garrison
« Reply #810 on: January 08, 2022, 08:40:21 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Gaeton Fonzi Channels Jim Garrison
« Reply #811 on: January 08, 2022, 09:57:07 PM »
And yes, the CIA did terrible things, albeit many of them with the approval and direction of presidents (including JFK); but going from that fact to the events in Dallas in November of 1963 is, for me, a stretch.

What horrible things did the CIA do with Kennedy's approval? There's currently no proof (beyond heresay) that JFK approved of the CIA attempts to kill Castro.

Today's CIA is very bureaucratic and disciplined but the first generation of the CIA was very wild and adventurous. Many secrets from that era died with Richard Helms, Allan Dulles, and James Angleton.


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Gaeton Fonzi Channels Jim Garrison
« Reply #812 on: January 08, 2022, 10:27:04 PM »
Look, the government lied about some of this. We know it, we admit it. The CIA didn't want to reveal their operations in MC or their really awful violations of law in mail opening et cetera. And especially about the covert attacks on Cuba and assassination plots against Castro. I think RFK wanted Dulles on the WC to help keep that quiet. There is no defense for this. Hoover was just an awful person. The Cold War enticed them to do stupid and immoral things.

The conspiracy by the government was one of failure, one of people in power covering up for their failures and for their abuses of power and, in some case, legitimate concerns. That was why they withheld information and lied.

The fact that the CIA or FBI did bad things doesn't mean they did THIS bad thing, i.e., killing JFK. Frankly, I have no idea how you could plan something like this out. Nobody said no? Nobody would expose this? JFK was admired by some people; and even those who hated him wouldn't all go along with this type of fascist coup.

The claim is that the WC covered it up. Well, Norman Redlich was the lead author of that report and the main person involved in the investigation. Redlich was a man of the political left; he attacked Joe McCarthy, he didn't care for Hoover, he was a noted civil libertarian. He's simply not going to go along with this quasi-fascist coup. He's not. Neither, in my view, were those other men, some of whom were top defense lawyers and civil libertarians. These were not gangsters or crooks; these were men of ethics.

The most obvious explanation: an angry, disaffected man who disliked the world he lived in killed the man who personified that world. He got lucky, chance helped him out. Ironically, a man who had little luck in life won the lottery of history. People don't want to accept that. So here we are some almost 60 years later.

You missed the biggest reason for the cover-up: avoiding a Hot War against the Soviets.

Oswald's background as a self-proclaimed Marxist (with a Russian wife) who lived in the USSR prior to the assassination naturally led to speculation that the Soviets were involved. That presented a national security problem for LBJ.

The threat of nuclear war is what Johnson hung over the heads of Warren and some others who joined the Warren Commission.

So, I broadly agree that the motives for the government's coverup might've had nothing to do with hiding the fact that it was an "inside job". They most likely went into cover-up mode due to the national security concerns.

That's the biggest reason why I don't assume that the post-assassination coverup and the conspiracy to kill JFK had to have been carried out by the same group. It very plausibly could've been conspirators who had no direct connection to the US government and the motives for the coverups might've been unrelated to the motive for the assassination plot.

What I don't quite understand is, if you're willing to go as far as admitting that there were coverups and that the Warren Commission was lied to by the CIA and FBI, how can you trust the evidence or be so confident that we know the whole truth?

I don't think it's possible to ever feel that we know the whole truth about the JFK assassination given those circumstances...

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Re: Gaeton Fonzi Channels Jim Garrison
« Reply #812 on: January 08, 2022, 10:27:04 PM »


Offline Fred Litwin

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Jefferson Morley and "JFK Revisited"
« Reply #813 on: January 09, 2022, 03:52:52 PM »
Jefferson Morley and "JFK Revisited"
Tracy Parnell has written an excellent rejoinder to Jefferson Morley.

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jefferson-morley-and-jfk-revisited

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: JFK Revisited
« Reply #814 on: January 09, 2022, 05:07:16 PM »
JFK Revisited now has a 7.6 user rating on IMDB and a 62% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes.

The masses clearly like this film more than the elitist critics…

Online W. Tracy Parnell

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    • W. Tracy Parnell Debunking JFK Conspiracy Theories
Re: Jefferson Morley and "JFK Revisited"
« Reply #815 on: January 09, 2022, 05:51:07 PM »
Jefferson Morley and "JFK Revisited"
Tracy Parnell has written an excellent rejoinder to Jefferson Morley.

https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jefferson-morley-and-jfk-revisited

Thanks for the mention Fred.  Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Jefferson Morley and "JFK Revisited"
« Reply #815 on: January 09, 2022, 05:51:07 PM »