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Author Topic: Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History. 53 pieces of Evidence against Oswald.  (Read 7458 times)

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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  • Hebraisms were known in Smith's time and many lay people back then read a great deal of scripture. There's plenty of 18th- and 19th-Century style writing in the Book of Mormon.

No, they were not, not the kind of Hebraisms that are in the Book of Mormon. And, yes, given that the book is a translation. And, no, there is not "plenty" of 18th/19th-century-style writing in the Book of Mormon. I see you went running to Wikipedia and/or anti-Mormon sites, but obviously did not bother to read the other side. That seems to be a habit of yours.

  • Nehhm was drawn on a map in the late 1700s.
LOL! You are a joke. You're obviously talking about the 1763 map drawn by a German surveyor Niebuhr that mentions a place called name "Nehhm," but "Nehhm" was nowhere near the site of Nahom that was found along the Frankincense Trail in Arabia. Niebuhr's "nehhm" was about 25 miles northeast of Sana'a. You might wanna check a map next time before you embarrass yourself again.

Educate yourself just a bit:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/history-nahom

No one knows for sure how the site called NHM is pronounced.[/li][/list]

Humm, I guess you don't know that I was an Arabic and Hebrew linguist for 25 years in the military and as a federal contractor. In Arabic and Hebrew, the consonants are the key, while the vowels can vary by locale or dialect. If you follow the Book of Mormon's description of Lehi's journey down the Arabian coastline and calculate the average travel time for that size of a party, you end up in the exact same area where Nahom was discovered.

  • The "Bountiful" site was known for centuries; you mean the 1990s was when a "scholar" made his determination.

"Known for centuries" by the the locals there in the area? Yes, of course. "Known for centuries" in the West? No. Joseph Smith certainly had no knowledge of ancient Arabian geography. The site isn't even visible from the sea unless you get close enough, and the land path to it is difficult.

  • Welch, who popularized the notion about chiasmus, cautioned:

        "Some people, of course, have gone overboard with this search, and
         caution must be employed; otherwise, it is possible to find chiasmus
         in the telephone book, and the effort becomes meaningless."
Dishonest cherry-picking. Welch was explaining that simple chiasmus proves little but that complex chiasmus, such as the kind found in the Book of Mormon, will not be found in English-language texts unless the authors knew of chiasmus and purposely wrote in chiastic style. Here's one of Welch's articles on chiasmus in the Book of Mormon:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/chiasmus-book-mormon

Read this article, folks, and then you'll see how dishonestly and misleadingly Organ has quoted Welch.

Some other writings by Smith contained chiasmus, meaning it was a style of writing he was familiar with.[/li][/list]

Hogwash. That anti-Mormon myth has long since been debunked.

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/how-much-could-joseph-smith-have-known-about-chiasmus-in-1829

  • Could be the "different authors" are actually Smith's writing style evolving along with his fantasies.

Wow, there's a powerful argument. Here's another chance to educate yourself before you make more embarrassing comments:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Wordprint_studies

Southern crackers (who have assumed the self-serving notion that coastal "elites" are the racists, not them) like the idea that Lincoln wasn't a Democrat, the party they single out for slavery. Of course you like Lincoln and would love to absolve the South.

You are just ignorant on this issue. Again, go to any of the major Civil War online forums, all of which I have dialogued in, and find me just one Lost Causer who praises Lincoln and also McClellan.

"Like the idea that Lincoln wasn't a Democrat"??? Boy, this is really, really silly. Clearly, this is not an issue you have studied. Lost Causers ardently defend 19th-century Democrats and they are very aware that the modern Democratic Party bears no resemblance to the 1800-1932 Democratic Party.

You should just admit that you blundered (again).

Well, you certainly know how to split a hair.

I noticed you snipped all the evidence of advance knowledge of Pearl Harbor. Be advised that there's plenty more where that came from. If you want yet another chance to educate yourself, you might start with the scholarly article "Signals Intelligence and Pearl Harbor: The State of the Question," written by historians Dr. Brian Villa and Dr. Timothy Wilford, and published in Intelligence and National Security, Vol.21, No.4, August 2006:

http://miketgriffith.com/files/villa-wilford.pdf

And I see you punted on further discussion about the RFK case. Well, here is more reading for you, on the off chance that you want to educate yourself (these are extracts from some of the legal briefs that were submitted to support Sirhan's appeals):

All 12 of the pantry witnesses who commented on Sirhan's position in relation to RFK said Sirhan was never behind Bobby but always in front of h im, and was always at least, at the bare minimum, 3-4 feet from him.
https://miketgriffith.com/files/12witnesses.pdf

All five of the pantry witnesses who commented on how quickly Sirhan was pinned after he opened fire said he only fired two or three shots before he was pinned down.
https://miketgriffith.com/files/5witnesses.pdf

The RFK assassination tape (the Pruszynski tape) contains more shots than Sirhan could have fired.
https://miketgriffith.com/files/vanpraagstatement.pdf
https://miketgriffith.com/files/bradjohnsonstatement.pdf

The ballistics evidence in the RFK case.
https://miketgriffith.com/files/ballisticsevidence1.pdf
[/list]

JFK Assassination Forum


Offline Michael T. Griffith

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What Mormons have to say on specific points of contention is given accurate quotation on Wiki and "anti-Mormon" (LOL) sites. Now I can't vouch for every source or blogger.

Compare the parallel syntax in the 1816 mainstream book The Late War with the BoM. Link

Then again, we don't know exactly where Nahom was. Here's what we have for placing the party (and "Nahom" as if it's the same as NHM) in Yemen:

     “In a compendium of doctrinal subjects published by the late Elders
     Franklin D. Richards and James A. Little, the following item appears:
     ‘Lehi’s travels.—Revelation to Joseph the seer: The course that
     Lehi and his company traveled from Jerusalem to the place of their
     destination: They traveled nearly a south, southeast direction until
     they came to the nineteenth degree of north latitude; then, nearly
     east of the Sea of Arabia, then sailed in a southeast direction, and
     landed on the continent of South America, in Chili, thirty degrees
     south latitude.’

        "The only reason so far discovered for regarding the above as a
     revelation is that it is found written on a loose sheet of paper in the
     handwriting of Frederick G. Williams, for some years second
     counselor in the First Presidency of the Church in the Kirtland
     period of its history, and it follows the body of the revelation
     contained in Doctrine and Covenants, section vii., relating to John
     the beloved disciple, remaining on earth, until the glorious coming
     of Jesus to reign with his Saints. The handwriting is certified to be
     that of Frederick G. Williams, by his son Ezra G. Williams, of Ogden;
     and endorsed on the back of the sheet of paper containing the above
     passage and the revelation pertaining to John. The indorsement [sic]
     is dated April, the 11th, 1864. The revelation pertaining to John has
     this introductory line: 'A Revelation Concerning John, the Beloved
     Disciple.' But there is no heading to the passage relating to the
     passage about Lehi’s travels. The words 'Lehi’s Travels,' and the
     words 'Revelation to Joseph the Seer,' are added by the publishers,
     justified as they supposed, doubtless, by the fact that the paragraph
     is in the handwriting of Frederick G. Williams, Counselor to the prophet,
     and on the same page with the body of an undoubted revelation, which
     was published repeatedly as such in the life time of the Prophet, first in
     1833, at Independence, Missouri, in the 'Book of Commandments,' and
     subsequently in every edition of the Doctrine and Covenants until now.
     But the one relating to Lehi’s travels was never published in the life-time
     of the Prophet, and was published nowhere else until published in the
     Richards-Little’s Compendium."

Did this come from Smith? If so, Smith changed the landing site to Chile from "a little south of the Isthmus of Darien" in  Panama (1842), a variance of 2000 miles. Which makes any reasonable person wonder about the rest of the Williams note.

You make it sound like Google Maps. They traveled for years, supposedly staying put for months while crops grew.

The BoM just isn't that specific. Nahom could even be a term meaning mourning because of the death of Ishmael.

"Critique of Alma 36 as an Extended Chiasm" by Earl M. Wunderli Link

    "After examining the evidence, I take Wunderli’s side in concluding
     that the extended chiasmus of Alma 36 owes more to Welch’s
     construction than to the plate text..."
          Brant Gardner, Mormon researcher

And this from Gardner:

    "Chiasmus can also be found in some nineteenth-century works,
     including the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Abraham
     (D&C 88:34-38; 98:18-38; 132:19-26; Abr. 3:16-19). Thus, the
     assumption that chiasmus is an exclusively ancient poetic device
     appears to be false. Further, many Book of Mormon chiastic
     passages presuppose a doctrine of Christ developed beyond
     anything found in the Old Testament (Mosiah 3:18-19; 5:10-12;
     2 Ne. 25:2-27; Alma 36; 41:13-15)."

On to some anachronisms in the Book of Mormons:
  • Horses: No horses in the New World then; apologists suggest tapirs.
  • Elephants: None in the Americas then. Mammoths were extinct.
  • Cows or cattle: None then; apologists suggest mountain goats, llamas and bison.
  • Goats: No domesticated goats in the Americas then; apoligists suggest mountain goats and brocket deer, neither known to have been domesticated.
  • Barley and wheat: apologists suggest Hordeum pusillum grass, or "little barley".
  • Chariots: LOL. Wheeled transportation was unknown in the pre-Columbian period.
  • Cimeters: A curved sword. The word "scimitar" (adopted from an italian word) doesn't date to ancient times.

Sigh. . . .  You clearly did not bother to read any of the links that I provided on chiasmus, Hebraisms, wordprint analysis, and Nahom.

Your claims about Nahom are refuted in the article I linked, but you obviously did not bother to read it. Actually, the Book of Mormon text is quite specific about where Nahom was because it gives the travel times for Lehi's party, and, as I mentioned, if you track those times with a reasonable assumption about how quickly Lehi's party could have traveled, you end up with Nahom being exactly where Nahom/Neham/NHM was discovered. Here's another article to read, for those who, unlike you, prefer to read both sides before drawing conclusions:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Old_World/Nahom

And the idea that the Book of Mormon's chiasmus can be traced to 19th-century sources/knowledge is absurd once you understand the complex nature of that chiasmus and understand what is and is not really chiasmus. Here are more sources on this issue:

https://bookofmormoncentral.org/content/chiasmus-in-the-book-of-mormon

https://evidencecentral.org/#/public/evidence_form?te=105&class=evidence


I notice you ignored the evidence regarding computer wordprint analysis of the Book of Mormon.

As for your list of alleged anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, these items have all been addressed in great detail by LDS scholars. I have to giggle at your inclusion of "chariots" as an alleged anachronism and your claim that wheeled vehicles were unknown in the pre-Columbian period. Humm, then why did they build wide cement highways between cities--just to walk on? Why have we found toy replicas of wheeled vehicles in numerous pre-Columbian Mesoamerican sites? For the sake of others, since I know you won't bother reading anything LDS, here are some sources on those alleged anachronisms:

https://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/sites/default/files/archive-files/pdf/rappleye/2015-12-21/rappleye_a_scientist_2014.pdf

https://bookofmormoncentral.org/qa/was-there-barley-in-pre-columbian-america

https://miketgriffith.com/files/bomancient.htm

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/anachronisms-wrong-things-wrong-time

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/why-are-horses-mentioned-in-the-book-of-mormon

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-is-the-nature-and-use-of-chariots-in-the-book-of-mormon

https://bookofmormoncentral.org/blog/five-compelling-archeological-evidences-for-the-book-of-mormon



JFK Assassination Forum