The Bus Stop Farce

[Bill Chapman]

I don't know. If you do a google street view journey through the streets of that area it is quiet run down with lots of houses missing. I don't know how run down or empty (as in empty sites) Oak Cliff was in 1963 but its possible Oswald could have ran portions of the trip to 10th and Patton where there were no houses.

He could also have run through the alleyways at the backs of houses.

Exactly. In my home town there were plenty of back alleys in those days. And many had high wooden fences. Us kids used them a lot especially when we were carrying slingshots, BB guns, and sometimes .22s (re the rifle there was a bounty on muskrats out side the town along the dam but we were underage.

Sample of Dallas back alleys. Note the high fences.
http://www3.dallascityhall.com/council_briefings/briefings0112/DallasAlleys_010412.pdf

[Martin Weidmann]

Exactly. In my home town there were plenty of back alleys in those days. And many had high wooden fences. Us kids used them a lot especially when we were carrying slingshots, BB guns, and sometimes .22s (re the rifle there was a bounty on muskrats out side the town along the dam but we were underage.

Sample of Dallas back alleys. Note the high fences.
http://www3.dallascityhall.com/council_briefings/briefings0112/DallasAlleys_010412.pdf

Utterly meaningless. Nobody cares what the situation in your home town was or how some back alleys in Dallas look.

If you want to present at least the beginning of a plausible argument show us a map with the route you think Oswald would have taken to get to 10th Street faster than Gary Mack's fastest route

[Bill Chapman]

No. Markham did not say that. She said she left home just after 1 pm and she estimated that it was 1.06 when she got to the junction of 10th and Patton. That's where she saw Oswald walking and being called over by Tippit.

And if you follow Scoggins from the moment he picked up his last customer at the airport and drove him to Oak Cliff, you will notice that Scoggins probably was in the area of the gentlemans club some 15 to 10 minutes earlier than he estimated.

I'm not a big fan of Dale Myers. It is clear to me that he arrived at 1.14 because he based his opinion on the DPD radio transcripts and needed to push back the time of Tippit's shooting as late as possible, so that Oswald would have had the time to get from the rooming house to 10th Street on foot. We know from Gary Mack's time trial that the fastest route took 11 minutes and we know from Roberts that Oswald left the rooming house just after the 1 pm news had started.

The most obvious indicator that Tippit was not killed at 1.14 or 1.15 is that the authorization for autopsy I already mentioned which shows that Tippit was declared DOA at the Methodist hospital at 1:15 pm. DPD officer Davenport, who followed the ambulance part of the way and was present at the hospital confirms that time in his report.

And then there is the combined timeline of Helen Markham and T.F. Bowley that does not compute with Tippit being killed after 1:10 pm at the latest. No LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day, but according to the FBI the bus was scheduled to stop there at 1.12 and at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived shortly after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit. But even if we accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:14 or 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

The interaction of Bowley with Callaway further confirms Bowley's arrival at the crime scene shortly after Tippit was killed. He testified that he was about half a block away from 10th Street when he saw a man coming down the street with a revolved. After that encounter Callaway ran half a block to 10th Street and when he got there Bowley was already there, using the DPD radio. Both Bowley and Callaway assisted in putting Tippit into the ambulance which arrived only shortly after Callaway got there. The ambulance brought Tippit to Methodist hospital which was about two miles away (if memory serves) and Tippit was declared D.O.A. at 1.15.

This timeline fits perfectly together if the shooting of Tippit happened between 1.06 (the time Markham would have gotten to 10th street after walking one block) and 1.10 (the time Bowley arrived after having picked up his daughter from school). If you move the time of the murder back to 1.14 or 1.15, as per WC narrative) none of the timeline fits.

You're quite fond of estimations, aren't you.
1:06 - 1:07 qualifies as 'just after 1pm' imo

Markham could have meant the time she left the house
We all know her roundabout way of attaching her responses to questions
that seem to confuse her

Let's see where Markham's time is corroborated
She seems ti be in the same boat as Earlene in that department

Nobody had to wait for the news at 1PM
The CBS bulletin came on at 12:40pm



And are you sure Bowley's watch was of good quality?


Maybe closer to Mickey than Rolex..

[Martin Weidmann]

You're quite fond of estimations, aren't you.
1:06 - 1:07 qualifies as 'just after 1pm' imo

Markham could have meant the time she left the house
We all know her roundabout way of attaching her responses to questions

Let's see where Markham's time is corroborated
She seems ti be in the same boat as Earlene in that department

Classic Chapman, go after one detail and ignore the rest. The irony is that I am simply using the testimony of the WC star witness in the Tippit case and Chapman is questioning it with another one of his "could have" games. Go figure....

I have explained all this to you several times, but you simply ignore and dismiss it only to start again with the same challenge of one detail out of a coherent timeline.

It doesn't make any significant difference if Markham meant the time she left her house on 9th street because it only took one block, or around 2 minutes, to walk to the junction of 10th and Patton, which means she would have arrived there at 1.08 and she would be at the bus stop on Jefferson at no later than 1.11. In other words, if Tippit was killed at 1.14 or 1.15, Markham would not have been there. She would have been at the bus stop instead.

Nobody had to wait for the news at 1PM
The CBS bulletin came on at 12:40pm

Another pathetic argument. Earlene Roberts wasn't waiting for the news at 1 pm. She said that a friend told her about the assassination so she wanted to watch the 1 pm news. There is a difference, but it will probably go over your head.

In any event, the WC presented a timeline which has Oswald arriving at the rooming house just before 1 pm and when he walked in Roberts was trying to get the television to work.

And are you sure Bowley's watch was of good quality?


Maybe closer to Mickey than Rolex..

Just keep throwing things against the wall, hoping something will stick, but the timeline I have presented in it's combined form makes it highly unlikely, if not impossible, for Bowley's watch to be wrong by much.

If you want to make a case, in which Markham's estimate is off and Bowley's watch was wrong, then all you have to do is provide an alternative timeline that fits all the known facts. And exactly that is your biggest problem. You can't, which is why you keep attacking individual points of the timeline.

There is only one question you need to answer to understand what really happened; Why did the investigators and the WC ignore Bowley completely? One of the main witnesses in the Tippit case, the one who called the DPD dispatcher, the one who - together with Callaway - helped put Tippit in the ambulance.....They completely erased him from the case. He is not mentioned in the WC report at all..... Now, why do you think is that?

[Bill Chapman]

Classic Chapman, go after one detail and ignore the rest. The irony is that I am simply using the testimony of the WC star witness in the Tippit case and Chapman is questioning it with another one of his "could have" games. Go figure....

I have explained all this to you several times, but you simply ignore and dismiss it only to start again with the same challenge of one detail out of a coherent timeline.

It doesn't make any significant difference if Markham meant the time she left her house on 9th street because it only took one block, or around 2 minutes, to walk to the junction of 10th and Patton, which means she would have arrived there at 1.08 and she would be at the bus stop on Jefferson at no later than 1.11. In other words, if Tippit was killed at 1.14 or 1.15, Markham would not have been there. She would have been at the bus stop instead.

Another pathetic argument. Earlene Roberts wasn't waiting for the news at 1 pm. She said that a friend told her about the assassination so she wanted to watch the 1 pm news. There is a difference, but it will probably go over your head.

In any event, the WC presented a timeline which has Oswald arriving at the rooming house just before 1 pm and when he walked in Roberts was trying to get the television to work.

Just keep throwing things against the wall, hoping something will stick, but the timeline I have presented in it's combined form makes it highly unlikely, if not impossible, for Bowley's watch to be wrong by much.

If you want to make a case, in which Markham's estimate is off and Bowley's watch was wrong, then all you have to do is provide an alternative timeline that fits all the known facts. And exactly that is your biggest problem. You can't, which is why you keep attacking individual points of the timeline.

There is only one question you need to answer to understand what really happened; Why did the investigators and the WC ignore Bowley completely? One of the main witnesses in the Tippit case, the one who called the DPD dispatcher, the one who - together with Callaway - helped put Tippit in the ambulance.....They completely erased him from the case. He is not mentioned in the WC report at all..... Now, why do you think is that?

He had is say in his affidavit.

Your time estimations are just that: Estimations.
One-Eyeball Earlene's estimated times were just that: Estimations.

The time trial only tested the walking mode of human locomotion.
Oswald had plenty of reasons to step up the pace. It's what killers do.

[Martin Weidmann]

Your time estimations are just that: Estimations.
One-Eyeball Earlene's estimated times were just that: Estimations.

The time trial only tested the walking mode of human locomotion.
Oswald had plenty of reasons to step up the pace. It's what killers do.

Does this mean that you can't produce either a map with a faster route from Beckley to 10th Street or an alternative time line that includes all the known facts? Gheez... now there's a surprise.

So, it's back to the one liners and "estimations" BS, is it?

You come across as a little cry baby who doesn't want to deal with facts, closes his eyes and hopes they go away...

[Martin Weidmann]

He had is say in his affidavit.

Your time estimations are just that: Estimations.
One-Eyeball Earlene's estimated times were just that: Estimations.

The time trial only tested the walking mode of human locomotion.
Oswald had plenty of reasons to step up the pace. It's what killers do.

He had is [sic] say in his affidavit.

Who had his day in his affidavit? Bowley?... Yes, so what? He is the only witness from the Tippit scene that was ignored by the WC and you can't possibly think of a reason why? Really? Are you that stupid or just dishonest, or perhaps both?

[Mitch Todd]

He had is [sic] say in his affidavit.

Who had his day in his affidavit? Bowley?... Yes, so what? He is the only witness from the Tippit scene that was ignored by the WC and you can't possibly think of a reason why? Really? Are you that stupid or just dishonest, or perhaps both?

Jimmy Burt and Frank Cimino are two other witnesses at the scene who were not called by the WC. They have something else in common with Bowley: they said they showed up too late to see either the shooting or the escaping perp. It wouldn't be surprising that they wouldn't be called to testify to a crime that they did not actually witness.

BTW, in 1963, people's lives ran to the pulse of mechanical and electromechanical timepieces that were set using other mechanical clocks as a reference. A few nerdy types might periodically dial into the National Bureau of Standards' time broadcast on shortwave and sync to that, but very few made that level of effort.  As such, any randomly-selected timepiece would commonly be expected to be as much as five minutes off of some reference time; any two clocks could be off by as much as ten minutes. This expected discrepancy was the basis for the old advice to always try to be ten minutes early to any appointment. You never knew when your watch was five minutes slow and the other guy's was five minutes fast. And it explains why the timing arguments regarding the Tippit shooting tend to be an asinine waste of everyone's time.