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Author Topic: The Bus Stop Farce  (Read 112743 times)

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2020, 06:16:13 PM »
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No she said she thought it was about this time "Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1." A little bit early for a bus due at 1.22 p.m.

She also said the man who shot the policeman was Lee Oswald.  So, what now?

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2020, 06:16:13 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2020, 07:11:09 PM »

From Dale Myers:  "The death certificate "discrepancy" - as I noted in "With Malice" - was explained during a 1983 interview I conducted with the late Dr. Paul Moellenhoff, who attended Tippit at Methodist. He told me that the clocks within the emergency area at Methodist showed different times - neither of them accurate as it turns out.

He used the 1:15 p.m. time shown on one of the clocks. The time reported to the FBI by Dr. Liquori (With Malice [WM], 2013 [edition], p.557) - 1:24 pm - is probably the accurate one based on the recorded timing of Bowley's call, the recorded departure of the ambulance from 10th and Patton, and the known drive time from 10th and Patton to Methodist Hospital.

DPD Officer Davenport noted that Moellenhoff removed one slug from Tippit's body at 1:30 pm (WM 2013 p.536). That same time (1:30 pm) made its way into Leavelle's homicide report (WM 2013 p.519) as the time Tippit was pronounced DOA (which couldn't possibly be true, right? You don't pull a slug from a body until after he's pronounced dead). This matches up with Moellenhoff's 1983 recollection that he removed a slug from the body within ten minutes of declaring Tippit DOA.

My caption under the death certificate (WM 2013 p.506) seeks to clarify the discrepancy between the Time of Injury (1:18 pm) and the time Death Occurred (1:15 pm). Again, it stems from my conversation with Dr. Moellenhoff. The 1:18 pm time, of course, probably refers to the time that Bowley's radio call was received - not the actual time Tippit was shot.

The 1:15 p.m. notation (although close in time to the actual moment of the shooting, as far as I can calculate) probably stems from Dr. Moellenhoff's use of an inaccurate Methodist emergency room clock.

Interesting, huh? All this fuss because no one at Methodist bothered to synchronize the clocks to actual time (some running fast, some running slow).

Can you imagine how many other death certificates were marked with times that were off by a few minutes? But what does it matter in those cases? Not one whit."

From Dale Myers:  "The death certificate "discrepancy" - as I noted in "With Malice" - was explained during a 1983 interview I conducted with the late Dr. Paul Moellenhoff, who attended Tippit at Methodist. He told me that the clocks within the emergency area at Methodist showed different times - neither of them accurate as it turns out.

And prior to 1983 nobody was looking into this and/or interviewed Dr. Moellenhoff? How convenient

Even if all the clocks at the emergency area showed different times that doesn't automatically mean they were all wrong.

He used the 1:15 p.m. time shown on one of the clocks.

It is an assumption to believe that the clock used, i.e. the one showing 1.15 was wrong.

The time reported to the FBI by Dr. Liquori (With Malice [WM], 2013 [edition], p.557) - 1:24 pm - is probably the accurate one based on the recorded timing of Bowley's call, the recorded departure of the ambulance from 10th and Patton, and the known drive time from 10th and Patton to Methodist Hospital.

We know for a fact that the clocks used by the DPD dispatchers did not reflect real time, because J.C. Bowles, who was in charge of the DPD dispatchers, told the HSCA that the times given verbally by the dispatchers (and thus copied in the transcripts) aren't reliable to determine the real time.

Two quotes from the same page: http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html#set

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." The Committee Report stated that the Dallas Police Communications system was recorded by continuously operating recorders. That statement is incorrect. Channel 1 was recorded on a Dictaphone A2TC, Model 5, belt or loop recorder. Channel 2 was recorded on a Gray "Audograph" flat disk recorder. Both were duplex units with one recording and one on standby for when the other unit contained a full recording. Both units were sound activated. It is important to note "sound" rather than "voice" because either sound or noise from any source, received through the transmission line, would activate the recorders. Once activated, the recorders remained "on" for the duration of the activating sound plus 4 seconds. The four second delay permitted brief pauses or answers to questions without the relay mechanism being overworked. On occasion, the recorders would operate almost continuously because rapid radio traffic kept them operating. On November 22, 1963, the Channel 1 recorders became, for practical purposes, continuous recorders for just over five minutes starting at approximately 12:29 pm (Channel 1 time) because the microphone on a police motorcycle stuck in the "on" position. The resulting continuous transmission kept the Channel 1 recorders operating for just over five minutes thus giving us a real-time recording for that period. The only problem was determining a basis for an accurate time reference during that period.


and there is no time for the "recorded departure of the ambulance from 10th and Patton".

DPD Officer Davenport noted that Moellenhoff removed one slug from Tippit's body at 1:30 pm (WM 2013 p.536). That same time (1:30 pm) made its way into Leavelle's homicide report (WM 2013 p.519) as the time Tippit was pronounced DOA (which couldn't possibly be true, right? You don't pull a slug from a body until after he's pronounced dead). This matches up with Moellenhoff's 1983 recollection that he removed a slug from the body within ten minutes of declaring Tippit DOA.

Non sequitur. Whatever made it's way into Leavelle's homicide report is irrelevant as he wasn't there at Methodist Hospital and thus must have gotten that information from somebody else. And I don't think that Moellenhoff was using a stopwatch, so nothwithstanding his 1983 (twenty years after the fact) recollection it might just as well have been 15 minutes. Davenport registered the DOA time when it happened. That's a lot more solid than a 20 year old unverifiable memory.

My caption under the death certificate (WM 2013 p.506) seeks to clarify the discrepancy between the Time of Injury (1:18 pm) and the time Death Occurred (1:15 pm). Again, it stems from my conversation with Dr. Moellenhoff. The 1:18 pm time, of course, probably refers to the time that Bowley's radio call was received - not the actual time Tippit was shot.

Pure selfserving speculation based on a 20 year old memory combined with transcripts of DPD radio that do not reflect real time, and none of it matches with known facts from the day it actually happened.

The 1:15 p.m. notation (although close in time to the actual moment of the shooting, as far as I can calculate) probably stems from Dr. Moellenhoff's use of an inaccurate Methodist emergency room clock.

Interesting, huh? All this fuss because no one at Methodist bothered to synchronize the clocks to actual time (some running fast, some running slow).

Can you imagine how many other death certificates were marked with times that were off by a few minutes? But what does it matter in those cases? Not one whit."


No, not interesting at all, because it is pure speculation. There is nothing solid in what Moellenhoff allegedly told Myers. And even if all other death certificates gave the wrong time of death, that still does not mean that Tippit's death certificate also does. Nor is it of any significance how much or little it mattered in other cases, it still matters in this one.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 07:28:30 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2020, 07:24:31 PM »
Markham gets to the bus stop around 1:15 every day in time to catch the bus that stopped at Patton and Jefferson at 1:22.  If true on the afternoon of 11/22/63, his would have her arriving at Tenth and Patton around 1:13/1:14.

And.... I really doubt that the conversation between Oswald and Tippit lasted two minutes.

No, Markham said she catched the bus at 1.15. She did not estimate when she arrived at the bus stop! People don't normally arrive at the bus stop at the very moment the bus stops there.

And even if she arrived at the bus stop at 1.15, she still would have passed by 10th/Patton crossing before the shooting took place (assuming it took place at 1.14 or 1.15), as it took more than a minute to walk the distance between 10th and the bus stop on Jefferson.

And.... I really doubt that the conversation between Oswald and Tippit lasted two minutes.

Doesn't matter... It was an estimate. Even if it only took a minute all that means is that the shooting took place a minute sooner than 1.14.

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2020, 07:24:31 PM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2020, 07:43:07 PM »
Markham gets to the bus stop around 1:15 every day in time to catch the bus that stopped at Patton and Jefferson at 1:22.  If true on the afternoon of 11/22/63, his would have her arriving at Tenth and Patton around 1:13/1:14.

And.... I really doubt that the conversation between Oswald and Tippit lasted two minutes.

No, Markham said she catched the bus at 1.15. She did not estimate when she arrived at the bus stop! People don't normally arrive at the bus stop at the very moment the bus stops there.

And even if she arrived at the bus stop at 1.15, she still would have passed by 10th/Patton crossing before the shooting took place (assuming it took place at 1.14 or 1.15), as it took more than a minute to walk the distance between 10th and the bus stop on Jefferson.

And.... I really doubt that the conversation between Oswald and Tippit lasted two minutes.

Doesn't matter... It was an estimate. Even if it only took a minute all that means is that the shooting took place a minute sooner than 1.14.


Quote
No, Markham said she catched the bus at 1.15.

No, she didn't say that at all.

Ball asked his question in a strange way and none of us know Markham's understanding of the strange question when she answered it and therefore we can't know for sure what her answer of "1:15" meant.  Regardless, she did not say that she caught her bus at 1:15.

Since we know there was not a 1:15 bus, she cannot be saying (with accuracy) that she "catched the bus at 1:15" (as you've falsely attributed to her).
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 07:47:16 PM by Bill Brown »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2020, 07:53:25 PM »

No, she didn't say that at all.

Ball asked his question in a strange way and none of us know Markham's understanding of the strange question when she answered it and therefore we can't know for sure what her answer of "1:15" meant.  Regardless, she did not say that she caught her bus at 1:15.

Since we know there was not a 1:15 bus, she cannot be saying (with accuracy) that she "catched the bus at 1:15" (as you've falsely attributed to her).

You got me... Markham didn't use the word "catch". It was Ball who asked her when she usually got her bus.

Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

Same difference

In any event she most certainly did not say that she got to her bus stop around 1.15 (as you've falsely attributed to her)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 07:55:00 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2020, 07:53:25 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2020, 08:43:58 PM »
@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years
Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2020, 09:27:12 PM »
@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years
Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.

@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years

Unfortunately for you, it's no longer an estimate when it is corroborated by other evidence.

Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

All you've got is Markham's "was there a number 2"...

The other two witnesses who were in the best position to see or could have seen (and identify) the shooter were Domingo Benavides and T.F. Bowley. Both men did not attend the line up. Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man and Bowley was completely ignored by law enforcement after he gave his affidavit.

And before you ask, we know that Bowley arrived at the crime scene just after the shooting and before Callaway got there. This means that Bowley either just missed the killer passing by or saw him leave 10th street in the direction of Callaway on Patton.

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.


How in the world would you even know what Oswald asked for at the line up?

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2020, 09:52:53 PM »
@CTers: Keep estimating the time for another 58 years

Unfortunately for you, it's no longer an estimate when it is corroborated by other evidence.

Meanwhile, Oswald was ID'd at and near the scene

All you've got is Markham's "was there a number 2"...

The other two witnesses who were in the best position to see or could have seen (and identify) the shooter were Domingo Benavides and T.F. Bowley. Both men did not attend the line up. Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man and Bowley was completely ignored by law enforcement after he gave his affidavit.

And before you ask, we know that Bowley arrived at the crime scene just after the shooting and before Callaway got there. This means that Bowley either just missed the killer passing by or saw him leave 10th street in the direction of Callaway on Patton.

Unfair lineup or not:
Q: Why didn't Oswald ask for a jacket in the lineup?
A: Duh.


How in the world would you even know what Oswald asked for at the line up?

Benavides said he couldn't be sure that he could identify the man

That's what the police said that Domingo Benavides said.....  BUT.... Benavides DID describe the killer.....And he DID NOT describe Lee Oswald.

Benavides described the man's hair as being cut totally different than Lee Oswald's ......

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Re: The Bus Stop Farce
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2020, 09:52:53 PM »