The Bus Stop Farce

[Walt Cakebread]

Bledsoe is referring to Saturday 11 /23/63 ......Where was the arrest shirt on Saturday 11/23/63? 

 Answer....The arrest shirt ( CE 150) was in the FBI lab in Wash. DC.

Question...Could Mrs Bledsoe have seen CE 150 on Saturday 11/23/63?

You are correct. She couldn't have seen CE 150 on that day and I don't think she did, because if she had she probably would have mentioned it in her affidavit.

I don't think Bledsoe saw any shirt at the police station on 11/23/63. CE 151 was indeed found in Lee's room at the rooming house and Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

I agree. But I have also seen close up photos from the sleeves of CE 151 (on Pat Speer's site)

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

which show no hole in those sleeves either.

What is possible is that the shirt CE 150 got damaged while being tested by the FBI. In any event, as far as Bledsoe goes, I believe that the first time she saw a hole in the sleeve of CE 150 was when the shirt was brought out to her home.

Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

No, Lee was not wearing CE 150 at the TSBD that morning ..... CE 150 was/is the arrest shirt.   CE 151 was the shirt that Lee wore at work that morning, and it is the shirt with the hole in the elbow that Detective Potts found in Lee's dresser drawer.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

BINGO!!.....  You win a Kewpie doll....   What we havvve heya is a failya of the FBI to cover theyya tracks..... Or more clearly, this is clear evidence that the FBI ( Hoover) was manipulating the evidence .

They said that they had found a tuft of fibers on the butt of the rifle that matched the ARREST SHIRT.....The ONLY way that tuft of fibers could have got on the shirt was AFTER both the shirt and the rifle were in the hands of the authorities.

 

[Charles Collins]

And then you call me a contrarian!

Check the record. The FBI only tested one shirt. In this case CE 150, the shirt Oswald was arrested in.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Stombaugh, I hand you a photograph which is labeled on the bottom "C 11, Commission Exhibit 150." It is a color photograph of a brownish textured shirt, long-sleeved, with a hole in the right elbow, and I ask you whether you recognize the shirt that is pictured in that photograph?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, I do.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you see your mark anywhere on that?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, my mark is in red, initials "PMS" are in the collar of the shirt.

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Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive this shirt that is pictured in Exhibit 673, said shirt being Commission Exhibit 150?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. I received this shirt the same day I received the blanket, which was November 23, 1963, approximately 7:30 a.m.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did you conduct an examination to determine the composition of this shirt?
Mr. STOMBAUGH. Yes, I did.

There is no mention of CE 151 or any other shirt in Stombaugh's testimony

The two shirts in question are still in evidence in the archives. So, there is a way to test them again and compare them to the photos.

You won't be able to get near enough to either shirt to do a test and comparing them against photos is a complete waste of time. Besides, Stombaugh's testimony is clear enough.

There is no mention of CE 151 or any other shirt in Stombaugh's testimony

He wasn’t asked about CE 151. I would like to know whether or not CE 150 had all the different color fibers (including the ones in the photo identified as CE 151 in the table of contents) contained in its fabric.

[Martin Weidmann]

Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

Pat Speer seems to think that was the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, and I agree with him.

No, Lee was not wearing CE 150 at the TSBD that morning ..... CE 150 was/is the arrest shirt.   CE 151 was the shirt that Lee wore at work that morning, and it is the shirt with the hole in the elbow that Detective Potts found in Lee's dresser drawer.

I think you are misreading what I wrote, because I actually agree with you and basically said the same thing

This of course provides us with an interesting conundrum because how could fibers matching the shirt Oswald was arrested in (CE 150) be found on the rifle, when Oswald was wearing CE 151 at the TSBD that morning?

BINGO!!.....  You win a Kewpie doll....   What we havvve heya is a failya of the FBI to cover theyya tracks..... Or more clearly, this is clear evidence that the FBI ( Hoover) was manipulating the evidence .

They said that they had found a tuft of fibers on the butt of the rifle that matched the ARREST SHIRT.....The ONLY way that tuft of fibers could have got on the shirt was AFTER both the shirt and the rifle were in the hands of the authorities.

I wonder why they never tested the shirt(s) for gunshot residue.

[Charles Collins]

This is weird. I am using Frazier's testimony on McAdams' site, which is supposed to be verbatim.
However, if you do a page search for 162 nothing comes up but 163 does.....

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm

Is McAdams site not complete?

The site I looked on is History Matters.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0123b.htm


Compare the two if you wish.

[Martin Weidmann]

There is no mention of CE 151 or any other shirt in Stombaugh's testimony

He wasn’t asked about CE 151. I would like to know whether or not CE 150 had all the different color fibers (including the ones in the photo identified as CE 151 in the table of contents) contained in its fabric.

He wasn't asked about CE 151 because he never examined it. Had he examined it and had he found fibers that matched the fibers found on the rifle, they would have asked him, don't you think?

I take it you're still clinging to the notion that fibers of CE 151 were fact found on the rifle, despite the fact that Stombaugh only examined CE 150? Really?

[Charles Collins]

He wasn't asked about CE 151 because he never examined it. Had he examined it and had he found fibers that matched the fibers found on the rifle, they would have asked him, don't you think?

I take it you're still clinging to the notion that fibers of CE 151 were fact found on the rifle, despite the fact that Stombaugh only examined CE 150? Really?

No clinging, your logic in this instance is probably good. But we still have the conflicting table of contents description.

And the fibers from CE 150 could have been on the rifle butt plate for an indefinite amount of time. And it is possible that the fabric of CE151 doesn’t shed as easily as CE 150. Or, if your contention is true, any of the fibers that might have been found on the rifle from CE 151 were simply left unidentified (due not having that shirt to compare them to).

The point is that the fiber evidence does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by LHO on 11/22/63.

[Martin Weidmann]

No clinging, your logic in this instance is probably good. But we still have the conflicting table of contents description.

And the fibers from CE 150 could have been on the rifle butt plate for an indefinite amount of time. And it is possible that the fabric of CE151 doesn’t shed as easily as CE 150. Or, if your contention is true, any of the fibers that might have been found on the rifle from CE 151 were simply left unidentified (due not having that shirt to compare them to).

The point is that the fiber evidence does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by LHO on 11/22/63.

But we still have the conflicting table of contents description.

I'll gladly leave that to you to resolve as for me it's a minor insignificant matter given Stombaugh's testimony

And the fibers from CE 150 could have been on the rifle butt plate for an indefinite amount of time.

Let's be precise here. You can not say that they are fibers from CE 150 as it is impossible to connect a fiber to a particular shirt. At best anyone can say is that the fibers are similar. Having said that, I am not sure if fibers could have been on that rifle for a long period of time, considering the fact that Oswald is supposed to have dismantled to rifle for transportation.

The point is that the fiber evidence does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by LHO on 11/22/63.

Again, if fibers matching those of CE 151 were found on the rifle, we would have known about it. To me, it's a safe bet that only fibers matching those of CE 150 were found on the rifle. But you are correct, that does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by Oswald on Friday morning.

However, as CE 151 was found at Lee's room at the rooming house, it does mean that Oswald changed his shirt, which is something the WC was not willing to say. I actually believe that, given the evidence as we now know it, CE 151 was indeed likely the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, but that does not mean he was wearing the same shirt the day before.

There is a good color picture of CE 151 (obtained from the National Archive) on Pat Speer's website;

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

and having seen that, there is no way IMO that Frazier, in natural light, could have mistaken that shirt for a grey jacket. Even less so because in his testimony Frazier said the jacket he saw had a zipper. 

Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Btw, by saying that Oswald was wearing CE 151 on Friday morning, you are not only going against the WC's opinion, but you also destroy Bledsoe as a witness and, notwithstanding your speculation, leave the door wide open for the question to be asked why fibers matching those from CE 150 were found on the rifle when Oswald wasn't wearing CE 150 that Friday morning.

[Charles Collins]

But we still have the conflicting table of contents description.

I'll gladly leave that to you to resolve as for me it's a minor insignificant matter given Stombaugh's testimony

And the fibers from CE 150 could have been on the rifle butt plate for an indefinite amount of time.

Let's be precise here. You can not say that they are fibers from CE 150 as it is impossible to connect a fiber to a particular shirt. At best anyone can say is that the fibers are similar. Having said that, I am not sure if fibers could have been on that rifle for a long period of time, considering the fact that Oswald is supposed to have dismantled to rifle for transportation.

The point is that the fiber evidence does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by LHO on 11/22/63.

Again, if fibers matching those of CE 151 were found on the rifle, we would have known about it. To me, it's a safe bet that only fibers matching those of CE 150 were found on the rifle. But you are correct, that does not exclude CE 151 as the shirt worn by Oswald on Friday morning.

However, as CE 151 was found at Lee's room at the rooming house, it does mean that Oswald changed his shirt, which is something the WC was not willing to say. I actually believe that, given the evidence as we now know it, CE 151 was indeed likely the shirt Oswald was wearing on Friday morning, but that does not mean he was wearing the same shirt the day before.

There is a good color picture of CE 151 (obtained from the National Archive) on Pat Speer's website;

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

and having seen that, there is no way IMO that Frazier, in natural light, could have mistaken that shirt for a grey jacket.

Btw, by saying that Oswald was wearing CE 151 on Friday morning, you are not only going against the WC's opinion, but you also destroy Bledsoe as a witness and, notwithstanding your speculation, leave the door wide open for the question to be asked why fibers matching those from CE 150 were found on the rifle when Oswald wasn't wearing CE 150 that Friday morning.

Having said that, I am not sure if fibers could have been on that rifle for a long period of time, considering the fact that Oswald is supposed to have dismantled to rifle for transportation.

I cannot imagine that LHO would have dismantled the butt plate from the stock. And if the fibers were wedged between the butt plate and the wooden stock, they could have been there a long long time. (This is an argument that CTs have used against the fibers being evidence of LHO actually firing the weapon on 11/22/63.)



There is a good color picture of CE 151 (obtained from the National Archive) on Pat Speer's website;

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence

and having seen that, there is no way IMO that Frazier, in natural light, could have mistaken that shirt for a grey jacket.

Sorry, but that particular photo of CE 151 is black and white. So are two others in that group of photos. The color photo of CE 150 does show that orange-yellow is a likely color of fiber to come from it. So I am conceding that the table of contents is probably in error.

Mistaking the shirt for a jacket isn’t all about the color only. The argument against this idea now is that, when shown CE 162 Frazier testified that he never saw LHO wearing it. So the idea that he mistook the shirt as a jacket (that didn’t look like CE 162) becomes more likely.